I240 Revitalization Efforts

[GaryOKC6]

Well it's hard to be enthusiastic when City Hall has an army of ants who will fabricate an alternative version of history every time City Hall screws up, which is getting pretty regular. Bass Pro has not paid back the $17 million. The terms of the deal were in fact altered, resulting in lower rent for Bass Pro--despite that they've been successful in the Central Oklahoma market. They were also an urban planning disaster, Bass Pro only wanted to be as close to the I-40/I-35 interchange as possible, and cared nothing about Bricktown, which is incredibly evident if you look at that site now. It stands as one of downtown's biggest embarrassments.

Not to mention that the deal was probably illegal, did get the city tied up in significant litigation, made the city look bad, and alienated a competing developer who would have done something much more appropriate with that site. The court of public opinion in this city vilified the fellow because he had an ethnic name and wasn't bringing a hillbilly supercenter.

More recent attempts at retail economic development have in fact been extremely successful, to date at least. Here I'm referring to the outlet mall, and offering that up as a great example. The operative point there however is that at this point OKC is willing to invest in destination retail and big projects that make a difference, but will not leverage incentives for the same level of retail as Moore and MWC (ie., sorry Target).

And yes, I am going to go ahead and say "Let 240 continue to fall into disrepair." It will probably be better for the southside. Consider the alternatives--what stores are they going to throw large wads of cash at to locate on I-240, Target perhaps? I can easily see that being the first retailer they attempt to lure, which would leave a vital neighborhood anchor at SW 44th and Western completely dark with no foreseeable replacement. This at a time that the city is making significant headway on a SW 44th Street corridor plan, including installing decorative intersections at Walker, Western, and Douglass.

So if we're going to propose reviving I-240 at the expense of a potential urban comeback along SW 44th, I'm going to be very negative on that. And that is exactly how I see this attempt along I-240. And yes, I do fault the Urban Land Institute for its involvement in this idiotic endeavor, and they should know better than this.

Metro equality is becoming a problem, there is a growing disparity between north and south in OKC, and this should be addressed, as should sales tax seepage on the south side of the metro. We do not need a temporary patch, and don't need to solve the problem by exacerbating it. When I-240 came into existence, the southside's wealth concentration moved south and you saw areas between downtown and 74th begin to rapidly deteriorate. I believe in south-side revitalization, and I believe that has to happen by taking advantage of unique opportunities along 44th.

I am gald to see thay you realize that you are struggling with being enthusiastic. Bass Pro is an embassasment? In who's eyes? Yours? (certainly not a suprise to anyone there) It is certainly not the tens of thousands of out of state visitors that stop there and spend there money in Oklahoma City every year. That is also a factor that impacts other local businesses. And you continue on saying that Bass Pro did not care about Bricktown and just wanted to be by the I-40/I -35 coridor. So what? No one ever said that they came her because they "cared deeply for Bricktown" It is BUSINESS. It sounds like you have a lot of negative issues about Oklahoma City that you need to deal with.

[catch22]

What frustrates me is this city works without knowing what the other hand is doing. The airport and city planning are trying to get a retail corridor going on the new Portland Ave east of the airport when Portland gets realigned more as a frontage road along I-44 between 104th and 54th....

Yet this city planning group working on this project has no idea of this project and is trying to get even more development on I-240 sucking away any potential interest in the other planning staff trying to get a new retail corridor going on the other side of the highway.

[GaryOKC6]

You are correct in that it does happen a lot with city projects. The efforts to fill the retail vacancies are primarily the effort of the South and Greater OKC Chambers. The Greater OKC Chamber focuses on economic development for the city and the South Chamber has a direct interest in seeing that portion of the city grow. Then you have property owners and commercial realtors that have a working interest in the area as well. I this case they have all joined forces to try and stimulate the area. There is one new retailer that is coming into this market and currently building the first 50,000 + store in north okc. I am wondering if they are considering one of the vacant big box stores on south I-240.

[G.Walker]

I honestly have never been east of Post Rd. on I-240. Is that where the problem lies or is it everything west of Post Rd.(in which I do not see much of a problem)?

That is what I don't understand, the City is targeting an area that ia already vibrant with retail luster. If anything they need to focus on the area along east I-240 between I-35 and Post Rd. This area has a new heart hospital, and constructing new office building which will bring some good traffic to the area.

[Spartan]

I am gald to see thay you realize that you are struggling with being enthusiastic. Bass Pro is an embassasment? In who's eyes? Yours? (certainly not a suprise to anyone there) It is certainly not the tens of thousands of out of state visitors that stop there and spend there money in Oklahoma City every year. That is also a factor that impacts other local businesses. And you continue on saying that Bass Pro did not care about Bricktown and just wanted to be by the I-40/I -35 coridor. So what? No one ever said that they came her because they "cared deeply for Bricktown" It is BUSINESS. It sounds like you have a lot of negative issues about Oklahoma City that you need to deal with.

Unbelievable. First of all, the city regularly utilizes its right to intervene in property matters. That is also "business," the city's that is. Also, Bass Pro could attract even more of those rednecks out on the edge of town, maybe that fancy area along Memorial Road. Inappropriate in Bricktown, especially for a project that wouldn't have happened without major government backing.

[ljbab728]

What frustrates me is this city works without knowing what the other hand is doing. The airport and city planning are trying to get a retail corridor going on the new Portland Ave east of the airport when Portland gets realigned more as a frontage road along I-44 between 104th and 54th....

Yet this city planning group working on this project has no idea of this project and is trying to get even more development on I-240 sucking away any potential interest in the other planning staff trying to get a new retail corridor going on the other side of the highway.

catch, what do you base that statement on? Again we have someone saying that we should pit one development area against another one. If you want to argue about Moore vs OKC development that's a different matter. This is all in OKC and not that far apart. One area can compliment the other if done correctly.

[ljbab728]

Also, Bass Pro could attract even more of those rednecks out on the edge of town,

Spartan, that statement is a little elitist and beneath you. I'm not defending Bass Pro but that's not cool.

[oneforone]

Unbelievable. First of all, the city regularly utilizes its right to intervene in property matters. That is also "business," the city's that is. Also, Bass Pro could attract even more of those rednecks out on the edge of town, maybe that fancy area along Memorial Road. Inappropriate in Bricktown, especially for a project that wouldn't have happened without major government backing.

Bass Pro is higher end outdoor store. The unwashed rednecks your bashing are not shopping there. They are going to Academy and Walmart because of the cheaper prices. Just because you shop at Bass Pro does not mean you live in a trailer and drive a 1985 Primer Gray Camaro.

Your Bass Pro shopper is like a shopper at Dillards or Macy's. He's not there to buy the cheap stuff. He/she is there to drop a few hundred to few thousand on new hunting, fishing or camping gear. Sure Bass Pro has a few country boys in there browsing but, most of them are window shopping and heading down to Academy or Walmart afterward. If the place had an REI logo on it you would be just fine with it.

[soonerliberal]

Bass Pro is higher end outdoor store. The unwashed rednecks your bashing are not shopping there. They are going to Academy and Walmart because of the cheaper prices. Just because you shop at Bass Pro does not mean you live in a trailer and drive a 1985 Primer Gray Camaro.

Your Bass Pro shopper is like a shopper at Dillards or Macy's. He's not there to buy the cheap stuff. He/she is there to drop a few hundred to few thousand on new hunting, fishing or camping gear. Sure Bass Pro has a few country boys in there browsing but, most of them are window shopping and heading down to Academy or Walmart afterward. If the place had an REI logo on it you would be just fine with it.

Please tell me you are kidding.

Bass Pro doesn't even have a solid selection of North Face!

REI and Dick's have much higher-end products than any of the other competitors.

[SoonerDave]

Spartan, that statement is a little elitist and beneath you. I'm not defending Bass Pro but that's not cool.

I used to at least respect Spartan's point of view, even though I almost always disagreed with him. But in recent days and weeks, as his remarks have spiraled down to race-baiting, elitism, and bigotry, I no longer find his posts or arguments credible or relevant.

[GaryOKC6]

I used to at least respect Spartan's point of view, even though I almost always disagreed with him. But in recent days and weeks, as his remarks have spiraled down to race-baiting, elitism, and bigotry, I no longer find his posts or arguments credible or relevant.

It sounds like he has some other personal issues with Bass Pro.

[metro]

Please tell me you are kidding.

Bass Pro doesn't even have a solid selection of North Face!

REI and Dick's have much higher-end products than any of the other competitors.

This. Not sure what one forgone was smoking. It's not even a matter of opinion as far as quality is concerned.

[metro]

I used to at least respect Spartan's point of view, even though I almost always disagreed with him. But in recent days and weeks, as his remarks have spiraled down to race-baiting, elitism, and bigotry, I no longer find his posts or arguments credible or relevant.

This.

[Spartan]

Rednecks are a race?

You guys are putting metro in heaven.

[Questor]

Well I'll tell you exactly why I don't care for Bss Pro and you can't refute this as it is factually true and verifiable: nearly all of their stores are located in tier 2 or 3 (or lower) cities that are generally considered suburbs. For the few stores that are located within major metro boundaries (such as Vegas) they are surrounded by a whole lot of nothing.

Look at a map of their stores... Their strategy is to locate in small towns or suburbs within 100 miles of more major metropolitan areas. It's a great big small town attraction. Bass Pro would have been better suited for its proposed location in suburban MWC, and not the heart of our downtown. You want to be an up and coming top tier city that attracts the young creative types? Ask yourself if that monstrosity would have ever had a chance going into the heart of Austin? No freaking way. The truth of this statement and the fact that it's obviousness is lost on the general public in OKC is very telling on many levels.

[MDot]

Well I'll tell you exactly why I don't care for Bss Pro and you can't refute this as it is factually true and verifiable: nearly all of their stores are located in tier 2 or 3 (or lower) cities that are generally considered suburbs. For the few stores that are located within major metro boundaries (such as Vegas) they are surrounded by a whole lot of nothing.

Look at a map of their stores... Their strategy is to locate in small towns or suburbs within 100 miles of more major metropolitan areas. It's a great big small town attraction. Bass Pro would have been better suited for its proposed location in suburban MWC, and not the heart of our downtown. You want to be an up and coming top tier city that attracts the young creative types? Ask yourself if that monstrosity would have ever had a chance going into the heart of Austin? No freaking way. The truth of this statement and the fact that it's obviousness is lost on the general public in OKC is very telling on many levels.

The more I read your post, the more I agreed with it. Great post, IMO.

[mcca7596]

Well I'll tell you exactly why I don't care for Bss Pro and you can't refute this as it is factually true and verifiable: nearly all of their stores are located in tier 2 or 3 (or lower) cities that are generally considered suburbs. For the few stores that are located within major metro boundaries (such as Vegas) they are surrounded by a whole lot of nothing.

Look at a map of their stores... Their strategy is to locate in small towns or suburbs within 100 miles of more major metropolitan areas. It's a great big small town attraction. Bass Pro would have been better suited for its proposed location in suburban MWC, and not the heart of our downtown. You want to be an up and coming top tier city that attracts the young creative types? Ask yourself if that monstrosity would have ever had a chance going into the heart of Austin? No freaking way. The truth of this statement and the fact that it's obviousness is lost on the general public in OKC is very telling on many levels.

Yep, what is considered a lower/middle class suburb out here (Mesa) has the only one in the Phoenix metro area, and I'm sure half of the valley doesn't even know it's there. The one in OKC is a weekend vacation for people from small town Oklahoma. lol

[mcca7596]

So... can someone enlighten me as to why the city didn't throw out $17 million in incentives to a multi-tenant shopping center for Lower Bricktown, even if it wasn't urban in design? Did they think that Bass Pro was the only type of retail attraction that would make good 'ol "Okies" come downtown? Talk about selling yourself short...

[Snowman]

So... can someone enlighten me as to why the city didn't throw out $17 million in incentives to a multi-tenant shopping center for Lower Bricktown, even if it wasn't urban in design? Did they think that Bass Pro was the only type of retail attraction that would make good 'ol "Okies" come downtown? Talk about selling yourself short...

I want to say it was thought to be a way to draw from not only Oklahoma but parts of other states as well, however they have been on a building spree over the past 10-15 years so really cuts down on it really being a draw more than most other big boxes (like 4x the number when the pitched the idea). What suprises me is that their pitch keeps working though there is a least one public study indicating it does not. The price the asked Tulsa was worse, it was 24 million in subsidies built like three years later.

[GaryOKC6]

Well I'll tell you exactly why I don't care for Bss Pro and you can't refute this as it is factually true and verifiable: nearly all of their stores are located in tier 2 or 3 (or lower) cities that are generally considered suburbs. For the few stores that are located within major metro boundaries (such as Vegas) they are surrounded by a whole lot of nothing.

Look at a map of their stores... Their strategy is to locate in small towns or suburbs within 100 miles of more major metropolitan areas. It's a great big small town attraction. Bass Pro would have been better suited for its proposed location in suburban MWC, and not the heart of our downtown. You want to be an up and coming top tier city that attracts the young creative types? Ask yourself if that monstrosity would have ever had a chance going into the heart of Austin? No freaking way. The truth of this statement and the fact that it's obviousness is lost on the general public in OKC is very telling on many levels.

OK, Let me see if I have this correct. You don't like Bass Pro because they locate in tier 2 or 3 cities and small towns or suburbs? Located in MWC? You are correct about one thing: This statement SHOULD be lost on general public in OKC. It makes no sense. The overlooked fact is that Bass Pro is a tourist draw. Have you looked at the 1000's of cars parked in the lot everyday? Yes the tags are from all over. That equals sales tax dollars for Oklahoma City and is exactly why it does not belong in MWC. The fact is that Bass Pro is the busiest place in bricktown and more of our visitors to OKC go there than anywhere else. OK you don't like them and I can respect that however the are good for okc and bricktown. A wonderful addition.

[mcca7596]

I want to say it was thought to be a way to draw from not only Oklahoma but parts of other states as well, however they have been on a building spree over the past 10-15 years so really cuts down on it really being a draw more than most other big boxes (like 4x the number when the pitched the idea). What suprises me is that their pitch keeps working though there is a least one public study indicating it does not. The price the asked Tulsa was worse, it was 24 million in subsidies built like three years later.

Thanks.

[Larry OKC]

Well it's hard to be enthusiastic when City Hall has an army of ants who will fabricate an alternative version of history every time City Hall screws up, which is getting pretty regular. Bass Pro has not paid back the $17 million. The terms of the deal were in fact altered, resulting in lower rent for Bass Pro--despite that they've been successful in the Central Oklahoma market. They were also an urban planning disaster, Bass Pro only wanted to be as close to the I-40/I-35 interchange as possible, and cared nothing about Bricktown, which is incredibly evident if you look at that site now. It stands as one of downtown's biggest embarrassments.

Not to mention that the deal was probably illegal, did get the city tied up in significant litigation, made the city look bad, and alienated a competing developer who would have done something much more appropriate with that site. ....

Are you sure about that? What I remember recently re-reading was Bass Pro asked for some upgrades (like the "lake" in front "connecting" to the Canal) and according to the City that additional cost was passed on to Bass Pro resulting in slightly higher rent??

They reportedly are paying below market rent though…

…The city has agreed to build the 110,000-square-foot store and make other improvements valued at $17.2 million, which would then be leased to Bass Pro Shops at below market rates….

While it was taken to court, it was decided that the funding mechanism used to finance it (including MAPS 4 Kids Use Tax) was perfectly legal, that the City could change their "intent" at any time. Something that we have discussed when debating the MAPS 3 ballot/Ordinance language. Accurate/truthful or not, this is what the City Manager had to say about it in the '03-'04 budget:

... A good example of this is the Bass Pro project. We estimate the project will bring in approximately $24.6 million in direct revenue and $129.9 million in indirect revenue over a 20-year period.
There has been a lot of misinformation about Bass Pro. To set the record straight, we are NOT taking, borrowing or spending from the MAPS Sales Tax or any other restricted fund. Dedicated sales tax revenue must be kept in special, separate funds. These funds are audited – internally and externally – every year.
So how are we paying for the building construction? We are borrowing from three Use Tax reserve funds established by Council resolution: the MAPS Operations, City Schools Use Tax and Public Safety Capital Equipment Use Tax Funds.
Borrowing Use Tax is not only legal and above-board, it actually benefits the three funds because the loans will be repaid at above-market interest rates.

Hmmm, the lease is below market rates but the loan is being paid back at above market rates????

...The fact is that Bass Pro is the busiest place in bricktown and more of our visitors to OKC go there than anywhere else. OK you don't like them and I can respect that however the are good for okc and bricktown. A wonderful addition.

I don't get that way often but whenever I have driven by (usually on the weekends), Bass Pro's parking lot has been mostly vacant…not even approaching the typical Wal-mart SuperCenter

I want to say it was thought to be a way to draw from not only Oklahoma but parts of other states as well, however they have been on a building spree over the past 10-15 years so really cuts down on it really being a draw more than most other big boxes (like 4x the number when the pitched the idea). What suprises me is that their pitch keeps working though there is a least one public study indicating it does not. The price the asked Tulsa was worse, it was 24 million in subsidies built like three years later.

OKC tried to get a clause that would prohibit them building another one in the state but the best they could get an agreement on was a mile radius restriction. Bass Pro was already thinking about the Tulsa area and made sure that the limit would still allow it to be built. Also, at the time, it was reported that Tulsa/Broken Arrow (where it is located) didn't have to put up near the incentives that OKC did (some reports indicated that NO public incentives were offered.. Much, much later, it was revealed their was a behind-closed doors deal. See here for more info: http://www.batesline.com/archives/20...ro-quid-p.html

[Questor]

OK, Let me see if I have this correct. You don't like Bass Pro because they locate in tier 2 or 3 cities and small towns or suburbs? Located in MWC? You are correct about one thing: This statement SHOULD be lost on general public in OKC. It makes no sense. The overlooked fact is that Bass Pro is a tourist draw. Have you looked at the 1000's of cars parked in the lot everyday? Yes the tags are from all over. That equals sales tax dollars for Oklahoma City and is exactly why it does not belong in MWC. The fact is that Bass Pro is the busiest place in bricktown and more of our visitors to OKC go there than anywhere else. OK you don't like them and I can respect that however the are good for okc and bricktown. A wonderful addition.

1. It's one of the only free parking lots down there. The fact that the lot is full may or may not actually reflect the state of Bass Pro. Since Bass Pro won't release such figures, we have no way to confirm what you have said and can only speculate.

2. I don't doubt that Bass Pro makes money. The point of my argument was that we should have thought bigger and tried to attract much larger entities that would have drawn more people and added more tax dollars to city budgets than what we settled for. Here's a great example: I work for a company that doesn't even go after million dollar projects anymore because they aren't big enough to worry about. For the same amount of effort wooing, bidding, and perusing we can go after and win contracts worth 10 or more times that. So why waste the effort... It actually is a waste because every hour you spend perusing and securing that 1 mil project loses perhaps another 9. That's sort of my view with Bass Pro. "it's making money" isn't a high enough standard. Pawn shops make money, yet I have no desire to see one in Bricktown.

3. Businesses feed off of each other and like minds try to gravitate towards one another. Rather than just accepting any business tht makes money whatsoever, the city should have considered this collaboration effect and considered wht types of businesses a Bass Pro would cause to cluster around it. The effect is well known and seen every day, even in OKC. There was nothing strategic at all about the decision to go after Bass Pro from this respect. It did cause a hotel and a Toby Keith's to be built in close proximity.

[Larry OKC]

Questor: While I can certainly see the synergy between Toby Keith's and Bass Pro in theory (the same "redneck" clientele...and I don't use that it a pejorative way, more in the Jeff Foxworthy definition), they are both along the canal and in Lower Bricktown but it isn't like they area next door to each other. Besides, I haven't heard/read of a single business that built on the Canal because of Bass Pro, but it was the Canal itself

That said, I do agree about what you said in #3. What the City should have done is convince a Wal-mart Supercenter to build there if they wanted other retail to flourish. Just look at up at Memorial or just about any other place where they have put one in. Other retail can't build/open stores fast enough just to be near them. Heck, they could have put the Bass Pro inside the Wal-mart and it could have been the sporting goods dept...LOL

[GaryOKC6]

1. It's one of the only free parking lots down there. The fact that the lot is full may or may not actually reflect the state of Bass Pro. Since Bass Pro won't release such figures, we have no way to confirm what you have said and can only speculate.

2. I don't doubt that Bass Pro makes money. The point of my argument was that we should have thought bigger and tried to attract much larger entities that would have drawn more people and added more tax dollars to city budgets than what we settled for. Here's a great example: I work for a company that doesn't even go after million dollar projects anymore because they aren't big enough to worry about. For the same amount of effort wooing, bidding, and perusing we can go after and win contracts worth 10 or more times that. So why waste the effort... It actually is a waste because every hour you spend perusing and securing that 1 mil project loses perhaps another 9. That's sort of my view with Bass Pro. "it's making money" isn't a high enough standard. Pawn shops make money, yet I have no desire to see one in Bricktown.

3. Businesses feed off of each other and like minds try to gravitate towards one another. Rather than just accepting any business tht makes money whatsoever, the city should have considered this collaboration effect and considered wht types of businesses a Bass Pro would cause to cluster around it. The effect is well known and seen every day, even in OKC. There was nothing strategic at all about the decision to go after Bass Pro from this respect. It did cause a hotel and a Toby Keith's to be built in close proximity.

1. Rather than guessing that the parking lot is full of free parkers you may be better served by actually going inside. I personally shop there and have for 30 years. I either ordered from the catalog or actually went to the store in Springfield before they came here. The store is always full when I am there. They also do a pretty good job of watching who is parking there. I have seen them tow cars as well.

2. You Say that the city should have thought bigger. How? What do you want ...a mall there? The fact is that there is a group that is focused on bringing more retail to bricktown. If you have leads or ideas on the "big ones", then throw them out here. We are very interested. I am also very involved in bringing businesses to the city and have been doing it for over 15 years. Bricktown has entertainment and dining. We need more retail to round it out. We would love just focus on the big projects but have to look at all projects. I also see the reports of the convention group surveys which indicate that visitors do shop in bricktown especially Bass Pro.

3. Bass Pro locating to bricktown was in fact very strategic. When they decided to come in in 2003 Bricktown was still very young and consisted of a few restaurants and clubs, and a ball park. It is easy to sit back now and criticize how or why they are there but the fact is that there are and always have been long range visions for bricktown. Again, I certainly invite you to share your ideas if you have something concrete that you want to share.