NFL in OKC

[borchard]

The NFL is like a luxury car. Despite what the car commercials say it isn't going to get you a better job, a bigger house, lead to more sex, or make your wallet fatter - it is simply going to be a luxury item with a higher cost of ownership that you can 'afford' AFTER you have already made it. People who buy luxury cars before they can afford a luxury car will find themselves in Jacksonville's position - unable to pay for the necessities because the 'wants' never stop wanting.

And it's not just the NFL. I have been reading about Bridgeview, IL. It's has one of the highest debt ratios of any Chicago suburb, and apparently they are having to borrow $27 million more to try and take care of the struggling Toyota Park stadium , where the MLS Chicago Fire play. This latest round of borrowing will put Bridgeview taxpayers at greater risk of funding an even bigger bailout of the city-owned stadium if it continues to suck money. Originally in 2006, Bridgeview borrowed $100 million to build a new stadium for the Chicago Fire, with the expectation that it would pay it off from stadium revenues. BUT, they were apparently so excited to get a team that they signed over all soccer revenues would go to the team, leaving the city with only money from concerts and the like, which haven’t been enough to pay off $100 million in debt. So now Bridgeview keeps borrowing more money to pay off the existing loans.

And this about the Philadelphia Union's new stadium:
Four years ago, former social-sciences professor John Linder questioned why promoters wanted to “bring soccer to a basketball town.” As mayor since January, he’s been trying to make the $122 million PPL Park, financed mostly with county and state funds, generate enough money to meet the city’s costs.
Linder may levy parking and amusement fees on mostly out-of-town fans. He also wants Major League Soccer’s Philadelphia Union to make a $500,000 payment in lieu of taxes that it missed in 2010. The team says it’s negotiating the fee.

New soccer stadium somehow fails to rain riches on Philly suburb | Field of Schemes

In Chester, 15 miles (24 kilometers) south of Philadelphia, public funds covered about 71 percent of the cost of the stadium for the Union, which is in ninth place in the league’s 10-team Eastern Conference. Related residential projects and a convention center haven’t been built, leaving the city of 34,000 in a program for distressed communities that it entered in 1995. Chester’s poverty rate is almost triple the state average.

[Snowman]

Probably a common story, I had heard some good arguments that Hamilton County's (Cincinnati's) replacement of their old Multi-use stadium, for sport specific NFL & MLB stadiums has been overall the worst economic impact in all of sports on a community. Though I also remember some stories about minor league stadiums that were build and the team move within a couple years that while a smaller loss might actually be a worse return on investment per tax dollar spent.

[Laramie]

Now we know why so many cities are envious of the OKC MAPS way of financing (Pay as you go). If our city were to build a stadium, it would be on a pay-as-you go (collect sales taxes) system.

What would this produce? 'A debt-free facility.'

1. Bricktown Ballpark was built thru MAPS I
2. Civic Center Music Hall was renovated thru MAPS I
3. Chesapeake Energy Arena was built thru MAPS I; upgraded to NBA standards thru MAPS for HOOPS.
4. Oklahoma City Schools: Built a number of new schools while renovation of all OCPS schools thru MAPS for KIDS.
5. Taft & Speegle Stadium were reconstructed thru leftover funds from a Bond issue & MAPS for KIDS.
6. Oklahoma City Zoo has enjoyed $12.5 million annual funds from a 'permanent' sales tax to build a number of new exhibits.
7. MAPS III: In progress...

Major League Soccer (MLS) may be a more viable option for Oklahoma City than most cities; it wouldn't be as costly as 'breast feeding' an NFL 'vampire' franchise, that would 'nibble' (a pun intended) at your city and corporate resources.

[hoya]

Kerry is exactly right. The NFL is fine when you've got the money for it. If your city can afford it, it's a very nice luxury. If you're straining to make the payments, it can cripple you.

Let's look at it again around 2030. We should start thinking about building a stadium with MAPS 5 or 6. Add another half million people to the metro area, get 3 or 4 more Fortune 500 companies in the city first. Right now let's enjoy the Thunder. They have the potential to win some NBA championships, and that's incredibly impressive.

[bchris02]

I really believe OKC is currently a one sport city. I think if something else came to town, one of them would fail and leave. I would say this would be worth revisiting when the metro area has 1.7 million or more people living in it, which most lilely will be the 2030 or 2040 census.

[OKCRT]

I really believe OKC is currently a one sport city. I think if something else came to town, one of them would fail and leave. I would say this would be worth revisiting when the metro area has 1.7 million or more people living in it, which most lilely will be the 2030 or 2040 census.

Yes we heard all that before. They all said that OKC couldn't support NHL or NBA. We heard it right up to the time when the Hornets came to town. I think now that OKC metro is approaching 1.5 mil that it's time to start planning. Like I said before. OKC should have another major franchise somewhere around 2023. I didn't say build a stadium today. I said start planning for it.

[hoya]

Yes we heard all that before. They all said that OKC couldn't support NHL or NBA. We heard it right up to the time when the Hornets came to town. I think now that OKC metro is approaching 1.5 mil that it's time to start planning. Like I said before. OKC should have another major franchise somewhere around 2023. I didn't say build a stadium today. I said start planning for it.

Eventually "they" will be right.

[gopokes88]

Yes we heard all that before. They all said that OKC couldn't support NHL or NBA. We heard it right up to the time when the Hornets came to town. I think now that OKC metro is approaching 1.5 mil that it's time to start planning. Like I said before. OKC should have another major franchise somewhere around 2023. I didn't say build a stadium today. I said start planning for it.

Then plan for MLS because the NFL just isn't going to happen. The league is very focused on getting a team to LA and international growth.

[Bellaboo]

NFL will not happen in the next 30 years in Oklahoma. They are smart enough to know that the market can't support it, along with the fact the local university football programs don't want it either.
Look what the NBA did to OU & OSU basketball programs. Those schools can't give tickets away.

One more time - It ain't gonna happen.

[Snowman]

NFL will not happen in the next 30 years in Oklahoma. They are smart enough to know that the market can't support it, along with the fact the local university football programs don't want it either.
Look what the NBA did to OU & OSU basketball programs. Those schools can't give tickets away.

One more time - It ain't gonna happen.

I do not follow OSU's attendance but OU's has unsurprisingly risen and fallen with how they do on court and I know at least a few years OSU had some struggles on court as well and at least one point was changing significantly more than OU for the lower quality seats (possibly related to having more recently completed a stadium upgrade). The OU Men's team went from competitive for a national championship before the thunder came, completely collapsed performance wise around the time the NBA came (with strings of losing players and long stretches without wins) and have started trending up since. OU's Women's team has maintained being on of the top dozen in attendance nationally. Plus Basketball was always second to football to most OU fans & alumni.

[Just the facts]

I seriously doubt the NFL has any current desire to go to Mexico City, LA, or London. If they did they would be there by now. There was an article here in Jax a few months ago which was a reprint from a London paper about why the NFL won't work in London. The basic problem is that England doesn't have college football (and the same goes for Mexico City). Second on the list was a study done by the NFL on team jersey and ticket sales for NFL games played in London. It turns out that most of the people who went to NFL games in London were Americans who already have their favorite teams. If the NFL knows anything, it is fan loyalty. Real Londoners aren't going to give a crap about following the careers of Mountain West or ACC (or even Big XII and SEC) players, and thus won't generate ticket sales. A team in London would have draw support from an ever changing expatriate fan base.

On top of all this the NFL has learned it has reach brand saturation. Of course, this happens when any business lives by the "growth model". They have pushed the NFL brand at ever possible revenue stream and they are simply out of places to raise more money. As a result the NFL will soon find itself in contraction mode as it starts shedding the expenses.

Mark Cuban sees NFL imploding from over-saturation - SBNation.com

Finally, the Raiders and Rams moved from LA in 1995 - 19 years ago.

[Snowman]

If anything, London and Mexico City seem like they are being propped up to take over for LA as a relocation threat if it ever happens there. London would be a scheduling/travel nightmare, I think some league executives have even said it would pretty much take a Euro division for it to make sense (granted it may not be the same executives their now).

It is kind of funny, there was stories about many NBA players do not even like the hassles with going to Toronto games due to the extra hassles of crossing the border to Canada, which are less than traveling to UK/Europe and do not have the time change problem with scheduling game times.

[borchard]

I know it's fun to dream big, and there's nothing wrong with that. But the cold. hard reality is that Oklahoma City will not get an NFL franchise. And the chances are even worse, in my opinion, to get a MLB team. At least in the past rounds of expansion MLB has been the most selective of the major sports in where they place franchises.
And quite frankly, I seriously doubt we will get an MLS team any time in the near to mid future. The reason? $$$$ There is not enough of it in Oklahoma City. It's been well chronicled how we had a chance to get into MLS in 2002, I believe, when the expansion fee was something like $10 million. It's now TEN TIMES that! For all the talk from Bob Funk Jr about building a stadium, blah blah, blah. And MLS feasibility study, blah, blah, blah, the reality is he and/or Tim Mclaughlin do NOT have the cash to get in, no matter what they say.
I've referred to this on another forum as the soccer equivalent to "The Great Pumpkin". They want people to believe that if we're sincere enough, and have the most sincere-looking soccer pitch, one day the Great Soccer Ball will fly into OKC and grant us a team. It's total hogwash aimed at getting your money.
If you like the Energy and their level of soccer, then support it. Please do. But don't do it thinking that if we just get enough people to come to Taft Stadium then we'll get an MLS team.
It will.not.happen.
And I'm not a soccer hater. I LOVE soccer. I really do. But I'm not stupid enough to believe that Bob Funk, or any other entity promoting soccer in OKC right now, has the wherewithal to bring an MLS team.

[td25er]

NFL will not happen in the next 30 years in Oklahoma. They are smart enough to know that the market can't support it, along with the fact the local university football programs don't want it either.
Look what the NBA did to OU & OSU basketball programs. Those schools can't give tickets away.

One more time - It ain't gonna happen.

That has to do more with the fact that college basketball plain sucks. 35 second shot clocks=100 passes per possession and a jacked up 3.

[BoulderSooner]

I seriously doubt the NFL has any current desire to go to Mexico City, LA, or London. If they did they would be there by now. There was an article here in Jax a few months ago which was a reprint from a London paper about why the NFL won't work in London. The basic problem is that England doesn't have college football (and the same goes for Mexico City). Second on the list was a study done by the NFL on team jersey and ticket sales for NFL games played in London. It turns out that most of the people who went to NFL games in London were Americans who already have their favorite teams. If the NFL knows anything, it is fan loyalty. Real Londoners aren't going to give a crap about following the careers of Mountain West or ACC (or even Big XII and SEC) players, and thus won't generate ticket sales. A team in London would have draw support from an ever changing expatriate fan base.

On top of all this the NFL has learned it has reach brand saturation. Of course, this happens when any business lives by the "growth model". They have pushed the NFL brand at ever possible revenue stream and they are simply out of places to raise more money. As a result the NFL will soon find itself in contraction mode as it starts shedding the expenses.

Mark Cuban sees NFL imploding from over-saturation - SBNation.com

Finally, the Raiders and Rams moved from LA in 1995 - 19 years ago.

Good to see that you continue to show that you don't have any idea what your talking about.

NFL revenue continues to climb. The 3 London games sold out over 8 months in advance. The NFL is 100% coming back to la when they 1. Use la as a stick to get stadiums in other cities and 2. When a great stadium deal gets done in LA.

Will Okc get a nlf team. Highly unlikely. However all is would take is Harold Hamm to decide he loves football and to buy a team. He could tune move it here. Nlf could stop him (see al Davis raiders suit). And Okc and the state would 100 % build him a stadium

[Just the facts]

Bouldersooner - The only thing you got right in your post is that OKC would 100% build a stadium for Harold Hamm. That without a doubt would happen, but back here in the real world where most of live we understand the premise will never happen.

You know, it is almost as if WLAF didn't happen.

Now having said that, it is possible that London becomes a rotating home field for underperforming attendance teams in the US.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...hise/18836011/

An October game, the "Wake up to Wembley" matchup between the Detroit Lions and Atlanta Falcons, had a start time of 9:30 a.m. ET in the USA, yet turned in solid ratings in a time slot that could expand the NFL schedule on Sundays.

Three more NFL games are set for London in 2015.

"We've sold a quarter of a million tickets for those three games (this year)," says Waller. " … If you kind of took that and translated it into U.S. domestic terms, that's probably half a season (of home attendance) for most clubs.''

[OKCRT]

They all said OKC would never have an NBA team. Yep,heard it sooo many times. Wait til Shad Kahn can get out of his lease in Jax. See what happens with that team. IMO they will be moving and it's just a matter of where. La has been used as a bargining chip for years. We hear talk every year that so & so team is moving to La. We keep hearing it til So&So team get their new stadium built. Then comes the next team with stadium issues. This year they really had to turn it up because there are 3 teams all at once needing new stadiums. It appears that STL is going to build one but that still leave San Diego and Oakland. These teams need stadiums to play in and the people of La refuse to kick in any public money to build one. So we will see what happens.

London/Mexico? Next bargining chips if La gets a team.

[borchard]

Interesting read on Deadspin about the Supersonics and how the previous owners screwed up. Especially if you can get past the "Okies Stole Our Team" memes
Howard Schultz Gave Out $3.50 Starbucks Gift Cards: An Insider's Notes On The Shabby Death Of The Seattle SuperSonics

He went through a litany of minor reasons why the team needed a new arena: higher capacity, bigger arena footprint, more room for high-end concessions, more places for premium seat holders, a.k.a. the super rich, the people who could afford a pair of courtside season tickets for $70,000. These were the justifications he offered us to explain why we were asking for a heaping pile of taxpayer dollars. After Walker’s spiel, a member of the sales staff asked the fateful question: “Wally, what will this arena upgrade do for Joe Sixpack—the regular fan?”

Dead silence.

After an uncomfortable few seconds, Walker said, “Well, nothing.” The wind went out of me. It was as if he’d punched me in the stomach. Walker tried to backtrack, but the damage had been done. The battle for hearts and minds had ended before it’d even begun.

I like what they say about it on Field of Schemes
Oklahoma City Thunder | Field of Schemes

The whole article is a great read, and is especially recommended for anyone interested in what it feels like to work for an organization that is trying to sell tickets to the very fans that it plans to abandon the minute it can. If there’s an odd note, it’s that Repanich seems to reserve most of his ire for Walker and Howard Schultz, less for demanding a new arena and selling the team to out-of-towners when they couldn’t get one than for being inept about the way they went about it. “I didn’t see how we’d get an arena deal led by men who couldn’t conceive of it as anything but a rich man’s boondoggle, perpetrated on behalf of other rich people,” Repanich writes. Howard Schultz, it seems, was worse than an envy-driven, greedy carpetbagger; he was a lousy liar.

[bluedogok]

If anything, London and Mexico City seem like they are being propped up to take over for LA as a relocation threat if it ever happens there. London would be a scheduling/travel nightmare, I think some league executives have even said it would pretty much take a Euro division for it to make sense (granted it may not be the same executives their now).

It is kind of funny, there was stories about many NBA players do not even like the hassles with going to Toronto games due to the extra hassles of crossing the border to Canada, which are less than traveling to UK/Europe and do not have the time change problem with scheduling game times.

A London team would need to be in the East division, maybe move Miami to the AFC South and put London in the AFC East or Dallas out of the NFC East. The time difference between London and EST is 5 hours, not that much different than EST and PST which is 3 hours. A noon CST start is 6:00 PM in London, I kind of liked the one earlier game they had this season. It wouldn't surprise me for the Jags to be the one to London, after all Khan owns Fulham of the EPL as does Kronke (Rams/Arsenal) and the Glazer's (Bucs/Manchester United). They are well versed in owning and dealing with a UK based team. Your talking about one game a season for 8 teams, for the division teams in the NBA some teams play that number of games in Toronto in one season. Coaches and players are slaves to routine, they gripe about anything outside of the ordinary.

Not saying that it will happen just that the hurdles aren't as huge as some make it out to be.

[Laramie]

MLB went as far as Canada with teams in Montreal (relocated to Washington D. C.,) and Toronto.

Let's not forget the NBA talking about going global back in the late 90s; they made it to Toronto.

The NFL did test those overseas markets with the NFL Europe (WLAF). Just don't see the NFL going into Great Britain, Spain, Italy or Germany as a division or into one of two or those markets. You could probably put a franchise or two in Canada (Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton); however it would have a negative impact on the Canadian Football League.

We all know what happened when the Canadian Football League made its debut into the U. S. (Baltimore, Memphis, Birmingham, Shreveport, San Antonio, Las Vegas & Sacramento).

[bluedogok]

The NBA Grizzlies started out in Vancouver before relocating to Memphis.

The WLAF is not a fair barometer because it was minor league football, there was no tradition and a team in London was not playing Green Bay, Dallas and other well known teams and players. The only time an alternative league has worked some was when they went after top players (like the AFL, USFL and WFL) but the USFL and WFL failed due to poor management. All minor league football, even one with some exposure like the XFL, CFL-US or arena leagues have failed to gain traction because they were still minor leagues. Not saying a team in London will work but some of the reasons why some say it won't work are not fair comparisons. I do think the NFL is going to go in there at some point, if it fails the team will move back to the states at some other awaiting locale.

[Just the facts]

Well let me end with this, if a team does relocate to London, Mexico City, L.A., or OKC - I hope it is the Jags.

[td25er]

Well let me end with this, if a team does relocate to London, Mexico City, L.A., or OKC - I hope it is the Jags.

You must be a joy to be around at parties.

"What can the Jags do in the offseason to improve?"

"They can leave and never come back. Jacksonville is better off without any sports teams."

[gopokes88]

I seriously doubt the NFL has any current desire to go to Mexico City, LA, or London. If they did they would be there by now. There was an article here in Jax a few months ago which was a reprint from a London paper about why the NFL won't work in London. The basic problem is that England doesn't have college football (and the same goes for Mexico City). Second on the list was a study done by the NFL on team jersey and ticket sales for NFL games played in London. It turns out that most of the people who went to NFL games in London were Americans who already have their favorite teams. If the NFL knows anything, it is fan loyalty. Real Londoners aren't going to give a crap about following the careers of Mountain West or ACC (or even Big XII and SEC) players, and thus won't generate ticket sales. A team in London would have draw support from an ever changing expatriate fan base.

On top of all this the NFL has learned it has reach brand saturation. Of course, this happens when any business lives by the "growth model". They have pushed the NFL brand at ever possible revenue stream and they are simply out of places to raise more money. As a result the NFL will soon find itself in contraction mode as it starts shedding the expenses.

Mark Cuban sees NFL imploding from over-saturation - SBNation.com

Finally, the Raiders and Rams moved from LA in 1995 - 19 years ago.

Facepalm. For someone named just the facts you sure do like to ignore them.

"I can see the kind of reception we got there," said Kraft of New England's visit to the United Kingdom in 2012. "... I would not be disappointed, and I would also believe that we should work hard to try and have a franchise in London before the decade was out."

Goodell, Kraft talk possibility of teams in L.A., London - NFL.com

[OKCRT]

Jags still have a lease but that will end one day or be bought out. It was a bad idea to put an NFL franchise in that market to begin with and the NFL now realizes that. But they are stuck for now.