Streetcar

[soonerguru]

I am following JTF on this and he is kind of saying what I am saying. (I can't believe I just said that ) You have to figure out where the people likely to use the system are going ... both from and to. You either build it to serve them or build it to influence development of things that appeal to that demographic segment and enable access to those things through cheap and reliable transit. Transit serves no purpose if it doesn't enable people to go where they want to go, safely, cheaply and reliably on the schedules they want. So, without knowing their transit destinations we know nothing. We should know where people who are likely users originate and what their movement patterns are. OR, build the route and then encourage development of compatible services along that route. Otherwise, it is just an amusement park ride.

I agree with your premise. They studied it. That's why they developed the route they did. The only argument I've seen that seemingly has merit is that it doesn't truck right through the middle of Deep Deuce. But it does serve Deep Deuce at the edges. And it's going to abut many high-density residential complexes that are under construction, soon to start construction, or recently announced. It also goes through the densest part of the Central Business District, the densest entertainment district in OKC, the only retail district in Downtown to speak of, and the hottest and fastest growing neighborhood in our city. It connects people to places of major employment, the arts district, one of the state's largest and fastest growing medical districts, the center of our municipal government, our city's most renowned tourist attraction, our city's greatest sporting venue, the parks, etc. To say this doesn't go where people are or want to go is just patently absurd. It is a blatant falsehood, a statement that is ridiculous on its face, so why keep repeating it?

The scope of the project was always to connect people to destinations throughout downtown. It does this. Some people wish the scope were different but that's always been the scope of the project.

I suspect this game of playing "catch up" on public transportation is not moving fast enough for many people who dream of a city with at least a functional transit system. We are not that city today. So they're lumping all of their hopes and dreams on the streetcar project when it is only the important beginning of what will hopefully turn into an enthusiastic embrace of better public transportation options for all of OKC.

This is a classic case of rising expectations. When things start to get better they don't get better fast enough to meet rising expectations, so people react. It's totally understandable and it is historically predictable.

The discussions are fine and healthy for the most part but it gets tiring to hear repeated garbage that doesn't square with the facts. The streetcar is not being designed to solely travel through empty sections of OKC in the vain hopes of TOD. It is NOT bypassing dense areas. It is connecting MAJOR downtown destinations. And it will travel near dense areas we know about today and it will inspire further densification. It will serve residents, visitors, office workers, and citizens from throughout the city. It will be used by people of every socioeconomic group. And it's going to have lots of riders.

That is why people fight for fixed-rail transit solutions; they cannot be moved around like a rave. The streetcar is going to be a fabulous asset to our city.

[CaptDave]

I am following JTF on this and he is kind of saying what I am saying. (I can't believe I just said that )

I think Lucifer just felt a chill!!

I understand exactly where you and JTF are coming from but arrived at a different conclusion. I think it ultimately boils downs to a chicken and egg question.

If the streetcar was a 100% standalone mode of transit I would be more inclined to agree with you. However, in the bigger scheme of how to improve transit in central OK, it is still a critical component but with a different role.

Here the thought process that led me to my position:

First, we must agree it is more likely than not a regional transit authority will eventually be established in central OK. Next, I think it is best to use the Fixed Guideway Study as the basic outline for a comprehensive central OK transit network. It is the primary document outlining how various modes of transit could (should?) be used in the Metro. If we assume the basics of the FGS will be the template for the eventual RTA, the question becomes where do we start?

In all likelihood, the first thing that will happen once an RTA is established and funded is bus service will be dramatically and quickly improved. Increased routes, higher frequency, and modernized buses will show up fairly quickly once the funding mechanism is in place. This will directly impact large numbers of transit dependent people right away and that is the right thing to do. A byproduct of improving the bus service's "reputation" for lack of a better word will be an increase in "choice" riders as long as the routes go where these people are. This is how I foresee transit becoming "acceptable" to middle class north OKC/Edmond people like me. In Edmond, Norman, and other suburbs it will probably include some sort of park and ride facilities also. I know JTF hates that idea, but I am fairly sure they will be part of the equation. When that happens, all these people riding buses to either the bus transfer center or transit hub will still need a way to get to their final destinations.

Then people will start asking for other options to get from Edmond or Norman to downtown. The FGS incorporates Commuter rail running from Edmond to Norman and Yukon/Mustang to MWC/Tinker AFB with the Santa Fe transit hub at the center. In FGS, Bus Rapid Transit is envisioned for the NW Expressway corridor. The Adventure Line seems like it is a priority for the city and it will probably precede commuter rail and BRT. These riders will need the proverbial "last mile" also.

Additionally, we will have the opportunity to serve other locations in OKC with an expanded streetcar system. In some places it may function more like light rail and not run in the streets. I think the Farmer's Market, Stockyards, Plaza District, Capitol Hill, HSC and vicinity, State Capitol, and maybe Will Rogers Airport at possibilities for an extended streetcar system. This will further increase the number of people needing the "last mile".

If the streetcar/downtown circulator is not in place before any of these parts of the FGS are operational, I think the new modes of transit will be seriously hampered and the lack of the "last mile" will probably be a fatal flaw to central OK transit in general. I think cries of "why should I bother with using this new bus/train/BRT when I still have to walk all the way across town when I get there?" would be inevitable and unnecessarily decrease ridership. This is easily avoided when we have the opportunity, and more importantly, the funding to get the streetcar circulator ready before that happens.

This is why I think it is best to build the downtown circulator component of FGS first. Otherwise, people will not use an improved bus system or other RTA component because they would be dumped off downtown with no way to get to the end point of their trip. In turn, that would give ammunition to transit naysayers to assert any investment in transit is wasted.

Finally, I think we will see a dramatic increase in the number of residents in downtown, and specifically along the streetcar route(s). These people will need the "first mile" to get to destinations around town, and may include taking a bus from the hub or transfer center to locations outside downtown. The streetcar will be the preferred transit mode for the majority of those people most of the time. I think these "new" residents will be a mix of the young "hipster", professionals at the various employers downtown, aging/retired people who may not be able to drive any longer, families with younger kids (at least through elementary age - I am not so sure about middle and high school aged right now), and people who simply don't want to live in the suburbs and all that comes with that lifestyle. Some of the new residential development will be directly attributable to the permanence of the streetcar.

For all those reasons and a few others, I think the MAPS3 streetcar makes sense to be the downtown circulator component of a larger future Central OK transit system. Until the RTA and these other modes of transit are established, the streetcar will provide a good balance of a transit option for thousands of people and impetus for economic development along the route. Even if for some reason the RTA and all that it will bring never happens, the streetcar will still serve those functions.

I guess that is a little more than $.02 and maybe more than anyone wanted to read. But it is the basis for my support of the Zeta route and why I think the city is on the right path for the MAPS3 Streetcar / Transit project.

[Rover]

This reminds me of when I cook a large meal with lots of sides for a lot of guests.....I hope it all gets finished together so everything is hot. But, I leave the kitchen in a mess to do it.

I guess my point has been that we look at the demographics and desires of the potential riders and not just population numbers. Plus, like hunting, you have to aim in front of the target to hit it.

[bluedogok]

The Red Line in Cleveland runs every 5 min during rush hour but thats LRT. I'd bet Portland ramps up freq for rush periods, maybe even Blazers games, etc. keep in mind OKC and Portland have far more in common than people realize, incl being rabid NBA towns.

RTD Light Rail here has about 8 minute intervals, at least on the H Line that I ride occasionally.

OKC's system would not be very complex but then the first subway/train system that I experienced was Tokyo. I don't think there are many that can be as complex as the Tokyo subway system and JRT.

[BoulderSooner]

The same route EVERYONE walks from those two districts.

the idea that "everyone" walks between bricktown and midtown is one of the funniest things i have ever read on this forum

[Larry OKC]

I agree with the rising expectations comment. Part of the problem is we are expecting this TINY (with couplets, only covering 2.5 to 3 miles) "starter" streetcar to be all things to all people. It can't. It won't. The subcommittee was tasked with an extremely difficult balancing act of trying to be everything to everyone. But something that seems to get missed, if this starter system is a failure (for whatever reason), the rest of it is unlikely to follow. For it to be what we all want it to become, it HAS to be successful. People have to ride it and want more.

[Spartan]

the idea that "everyone" walks between bricktown and midtown is one of the funniest things i have ever read on this forum

Uh yeah that's almost 2 miles. The point i try to come back to over and over is that downtown is so much bigger than people realize.

[Spartan]

RTD Light Rail here has about 8 minute intervals, at least on the H Line that I ride occasionally.

OKC's system would not be very complex but then the first subway/train system that I experienced was Tokyo. I don't think there are many that can be as complex as the Tokyo subway system and JRT.

Yeah, i think standard headways are coming way down. I'm noticing a trend with transit seeing benefits in providing increased service.

[CaptDave]

I agree with the rising expectations comment. Part of the problem is we are expecting this TINY (with couplets, only covering 2.5 to 3 miles) "starter" streetcar to be all things to all people. It can't. It won't. The subcommittee was tasked with an extremely difficult balancing act of trying to be everything to everyone. But something that seems to get missed, if this starter system is a failure (for whatever reason), the rest of it is unlikely to follow. For it to be what we all want it to become, it HAS to be successful. People have to ride it and want more.

This is one of the reasons I came around to thinking the Zeta route makes sense. By including the bus transfer center and Santa Fe hub on the route it serves both our present and future sources of riders coming in from outside downtown. Couple this with serving demographics ranging from Midtown apartment dwellers, OCU Law students, transit dependent riders coming in to the transfer center, tourists staying in Bricktown wanting to get to the Memorial, shopers in AA, and many others. Destinations range from Midtown and Bricktown restaurants/bars, AA shops, Myriad Garden, arena, city offices, courts, etc. The Zeta truly serves anyone from any walk of life pretty well. I think the subcommittee was looking for and found the balance you mentioned with this route and that is the reason they asked Jacobs to analyze it in more detail.

We must always maintain perspective on what this system can - and cannot - do with the funds allocated for its construction. It is just the first in hopefully many future improvements of transit in OKC. I think it is very smart for OKC to start the ball rolling by including this streetcar and hub in MAPS3. It will provide quality of life benefits right away and enable other forms of regional transit to be successful in a few years.

The subcommittee has listened to input from more sources than I probably know about and have modified their initial route preference to reflect input from many sources. I think they have done very well finding that balance. I think this is one of the primary reasons the streetcar will be successful and lead to improving transit in the entire central OK region.

[CaptDave]

Yeah, i think standard headways are coming way down. I'm noticing a trend with transit seeing benefits in providing increased service.

I wish I could remember exactly where I read this but a commuter rail or light rail system made the decision to buy additional vehicles for the specific reason of decreasing service intervals despite cries of "waste" and "not needed". After the lower headways were implemented, revenues went up dramatically from increased ridership. It made it more convenient enough that it became a better option for a large number of people. This makes sense and IIRC is being adopted at other transit systems. I will try to find the source and citation. I think sub 5 minute headway should be the goal eventually and hopefully we will get there.

[bluedogok]

There are two lines running at the stop by my office so they have to stagger the interval there and at a few of the common stations on the routes until they split where I-225 ties into I-25. It might be a bit difficult at times to have them closer, especially on some that have three line stops.

[Spartan]

It is 1 mile exactly and according to Google Maps, takes 20 minutes to walk. It usually takes me/us just a little less. We've always walked to and from H&8th and there are always a lot of people walking from Deep Deuce as well. Not everyone drives. Granted, I'm sure we (walkers) were the minority. But it isn't some huge distance. A mile is pretty insignificant to walk in an urban area.

H&8th to DD isn't BT to MT which is over 1.5 mi. Walker is a half mi west of BNSF which BT is east of.

[betts]

I enjoy a nice walk March through June, October and November, but we typically drive to Midtown. The farthest we walk is to Slingers or the 9th St. restaurants. Recently, however, my husband injured his foot and we don't even walk that far. And I walk nowhere July and August. I can't stand the heat. An air conditioned ride anywhere sounds good at that time of year.

[Spartan]

One other thing I would like to add is that any educated transit planner is going to look at reasonable pedestrian range, which admittedly, can be a flexible notion. That said it is almost never over a mile (NB). Most streetcar planning processes involve analysis of existing pedestrian and vehicular routes, and look at the streetcar route as a way of either extending pedestrian trips or converting short automobile trips. The phrase "pedestrian extender" is often used, in fact.

I've always wondered though how pedestrian trips are statistically accounted for in transit planning but, to be frank, just as I don't really believe someone stands on Broadway with a notebook making tick marks all day, I didn't do a transportation concentration so I have no idea. Would be interested in learning more about that process, partly out of hope that it is a legitimate, empirical process (one would hope for the amount of $$$ we're paying these consultants).

[Dubya61]

Just curious and not adept at searching -- Urban Pioneer, Betts, y'all sit on the subcommittee, right? Do you mind posting: What is your preference for any of the four routes? I'd even be interested in two other options: e) none of the above (in fact, this ______ (fill in the blank) is what I would prefer), and f) all of the above (anything will work just to prime the pump).

[Rover]

One other thing I would like to add is that any educated transit planner is going to look at reasonable pedestrian range, which admittedly, can be a flexible notion. That said it is almost never over a mile (NB). Most streetcar planning processes involve analysis of existing pedestrian and vehicular routes, and look at the streetcar route as a way of either extending pedestrian trips or converting short automobile trips. The phrase "pedestrian extender" is often used, in fact.

I've always wondered though how pedestrian trips are statistically accounted for in transit planning but, to be frank, just as I don't really believe someone stands on Broadway with a notebook making tick marks all day, I didn't do a transportation concentration so I have no idea. Would be interested in learning more about that process, partly out of hope that it is a legitimate, empirical process (one would hope for the amount of $$$ we're paying these consultants).

One possible way might be to run surveys at destination points...restaurants, offices, etc.... and ask where the person originated their trip and how they got there. Simple 2 questions survey. A pattern should quickly emerge.

[soonerguru]

One possible way might be to run surveys at destination points...restaurants, offices, etc.... and ask where the person originated their trip and how they got there. Simple 2 questions survey. A pattern should quickly emerge.

This might work, but it doesn't take into account future pedestrian patterns, which will be influenced by 1) the presence of the Streetcar itself, and 2) Future development of residential, restaurant, and retail corridors.

This all goes back to the basic premise that we're not just building for the city we have today, but for the city we will have in a few years.

For a simple analogy, imagine the pedestrian and vehicular traffic at 10th and Walker prior to the development of the traffic circle, the redevelopment of Plaza Court, and the inclusion of more restaurants and destinations. It was a ghost town ten years ago, quite literally. Now it is a bastion of activity. This is why it would be short-sighted to only view pedestrian activity today as a determinant of streetcar route design. It's going to change, it's going to expand, there's going to be more densification, there will be more office workers and tourists and residents.

Can you imagine how different the pedestrian activity is going to be in pockets of downtown, Midtown, AA, Deep Deuce, Bricktown and West Downtown within the next few years? It's going to be very different. That's why modeling based upon today's activity seems like a red herring if not a complete waste of time.

I've read that you live in a place in Chelsea. I remember the West Side back in the late 80s early 90s and there were entire dead zones (not necessarily in Chelsea). But then Chelsea Market, High Line, the explosion of the restaurant scene in the Meatpacking District, etc. happened and the area exploded. Same principle. One thing the area always had going for it was the presence of West Side subways, a critical piece of infrastructure for development in NYC.

[krisb]

It is 1 mile exactly and according to Google Maps, takes 20 minutes to walk. It usually takes me/us just a little less. We've always walked to and from H&8th and there are always a lot of people walking from Deep Deuce as well. Not everyone drives. Granted, I'm sure we (walkers) were the minority. But it isn't some huge distance. A mile is pretty insignificant to walk in an urban area.

Unless you're disabled or elderly. Is the streetcar for them too?

[soonerguru]

Unless you're disabled or elderly. Is the streetcar for them too?

Actually, the streetcar is better suited for the disabled than even buses, so, yes.

[betts]

Just curious and not adept at searching -- Urban Pioneer, Betts, y'all sit on the subcommittee, right? Do you mind posting: What is your preference for any of the four routes? I'd even be interested in two other options: e) none of the above (in fact, this ______ (fill in the blank) is what I would prefer), and f) all of the above (anything will work just to prime the pump).

I preferred what we called our preferred route - the one we came up with as a committee. It's been posted here and basically is the reverse of the route called the "reverse LPA". Unfortunately, unbeknownst to us at the time, there is a massive utilities vault on the east side of Robinson which would either be impossible or prohibitively expensive to remove. I would prefer the streetcar go up to 13th rather than 10th. There is an option to do that which we could consider once we know how much these routes will actually cost. Of the four, I much prefer zeta. While you lose some legibility, you gain flexibility. You have the ability to change direction at 4th St. where the north and south routes cross. Going North on Broadway puts the route closer to Deep Deuce on Broadway and zeta extends an extra block in Bricktown to get it close to the Hill and new developments on East Sheridan. Zeta allows the route to serve the Arts District and City Hall. It will have a stop by the bus transfer center to allow interface with the bus system. The crossover would allow two shorter loops to be created, one of which could have faster localized service for special events. The route is well designed to expand to the Health Sciences Center or to get into the land west of the park that will likely be residential one of these days. So, while it's not as neat a route as the one our committee came up with, zeta actually serves the city better. It is a compromise, but we always knew that pre existing factors and budget might require compromise.

And, as soonerguru noted above, the streetcar serves the elderly, disabled and bicyclists better, because the floor of the streetcar is level with the curb and it has wide doors. A wheelchair can roll directly from the sidewalk into the streetcar. An elderly person or person with a cane doesn't have steps to climb to get into the vehicle. A bicycle can be rolled directly into the vehicle.

[kevinpate]

Two things puzzle me in your last post betts. How did the city staffers not have utility location information to the subcommittee in the first few weeks of the process, or at least once it was nearing time to contemplate routes. That seems to be a failure in communication, and a pretty big one. The second one is a surprise, at least to me. i don't think it has ever crossed my mind that a bike guy or gal could board the streetcar and try to finagle the bike twix and tween standing passengers. On an uncrowded car, no big. But if there are several folks on board, I envision some people ending up at work or meals or meetings with some dirt swipes on them from the wheels. Not a fan of the idea myself.

[betts]

We weren't given the utility information in any detail prior to the route presentation. We poked around ourselves while they were tearing the streets up for Project 180, but didn't see the vault. We were informed that the streetcar could go under the Sheridan bridge but since our route was only "preferred", they didn't do the utility investigation earlier. I suspect that very few people have tried to map our utilities as a whole since they were put in piecemeal. Take that as you will.

There will be a place for bikes on the streetcar. I suspect if the streetcar is SRO, a rider would either choose not to ride the streetcar or wait for the next one. I haven't seen precisely what the bike area will look like though.

[kevinpate]

I want to say it shocks me that the city failed to give over such information early on. But then I think about other things unrelated to the streetcar that have happened in the same time frame and well, I really just con't muster up any meaningful level of shock that your group was short changed on some seemingly important information.

[CaptDave]

If you ever get a chance kevin, attending a Streetcar Subcommittee meeting is very revealing. That group of people has been very diligent in their planning and questioning consultants on how to get the very best streetcar system possible with the MAPS3 budget. Some of the comments from staff and others can be very interesting too.

[Spartan]

Our buried utilities are a nightmare.