Hill, The

[adaniel]

I think you were wise to wait and consider other options. One is to wait and see how core 2 shore residential develops. There isn't much land for sale in that area but someone will start building eventually and units shouldn't cost $400,000. There are some very livable houses in the Classen-Ten-Penn area for under $100,000 with nearly as much walkability. I just hate to see developers take a smash and grab approach and get rewarded for it. There are plenty of good cheap houses in this city that aren't going to saddle people with debt. I mean outside the chamber of commerce, does anybody think those units are going to appreciate from $400,000? If not, why would you buy when there are so many areas with potential?

I don't disagree with your assessment. With that in mind, it is going to be a VERY long time before C2S gets going. Also, if someone truly has the means to start spending 400K and up (at least in this market), they have the luxury of making a lifestyle decision, whether that is to be close to downtown, live in an urban environment, cut down on maintenance, etc. I don't think anyone expects these to rocket in value, but multifamily dwellings in general don't appreciate much in OKC, whether that's these or suburban condos off 63rd and Penn. But if you are happy with where you live, does it really matter?

There are indeed many affordable homes with close access to the CBD. I definitely wouldn't recommend Classen Ten Penn, but there are some nice bungalows in Gatewood nearby for 150K or less. Pretty much all inner northside neighborhoods have appreciated nicely over the past few years; from a percentage perspective, far more than most new suburban areas.

[BoulderSooner]

I think you were wise to wait and consider other options. One is to wait and see how core 2 shore residential develops. There isn't much land for sale in that area but someone will start building eventually and units shouldn't cost $400,000. There are some very livable houses in the Classen-Ten-Penn area for under $100,000 with nearly as much walkability. I just hate to see developers take a smash and grab approach and get rewarded for it. There are plenty of good cheap houses in this city that aren't going to saddle people with debt. I mean outside the chamber of commerce, does anybody think those units are going to appreciate from $400,000? If not, why would you buy when there are so many areas with potential?

price per sqft is not that unreasonable at the HILL

[LandRunOkie]

I wouldn't plan on anything in Core to Shore being under $400,000. I would expect anything park side to make Deep Deuce look cheap. But I agree that there are places close to downtown with a lot of value. SoSA is a good bet right now too, but I expect it to appreciate fairly rapidly once the new elementary school starts construction.

The Hill benefits from having the Bricktown police station basically on a cul-de-sac in its own little neighborhood. The grid system will probably remain intact in the c2s area. That makes it a lot harder to police and a lot more "urban." Outside of penthouses I don't see anything over $400,000 in c2s. Then we will see if the city can support real urban living rather than a closely guarded enclave.

Thats part of the reason I've been supporting Kemper's group. Government investment dictates private investment.

[Rover]

We need QUALITY development, not more cheap apartments. If you want inexpensive apartments near shopping, lots of restaurants, clubs, etc., you can find that at Quail Springs. Downtown needs to be more sustaining construction built to last for 100+ years...not more 4 story cheap apartment buildings. It's time someone develop a few 10-20 story condo/for let buildings near downtown. Maybe use the vacant area at the Hill for a couple of such high profile buildings.

[betts]

We need QUALITY development, not more cheap apartments. If you want inexpensive apartments near shopping, lots of restaurants, clubs, etc., you can find that at Quail Springs. Downtown needs to be more sustaining construction built to last for 100+ years...not more 4 story cheap apartment buildings. It's time someone develop a few 10-20 story condo/for let buildings near downtown. Maybe use the vacant area at the Hill for a couple of such high profile buildings.

Thank you!!!

Build something to last. There are apartment buildings in other cities that were built over 50 years ago and they still look good. They maintain their value because they were constructed in an urban area. Most of them were built of steel and concrete, not wood.

The problem is, are people willing to pay for quality, or would they rather pay less for something that looks good but isn't built to last? It's hard to think about what's behind the walls if the walls look good to you.

[Rover]

The Founders Tower uses a good model such has been used elsewhere. The reconstruction used quality materials and the finished product has nice amenities. When they didn't sell out quickly, they leased the units as apartments, starting with the lower levels. Some units sold, some rented. Now, if you want to buy, it helps to be in a rental unit and buy it, or wait for the floor-plan you want to become available. It is leased up and providing good income to the landlord and will eventually become all condo. This building would be a good fit now in downtown. Doing so at the Hill would provide great sunset, downtown and river vistas, and as a highrise would keep most of the units well above the expressway noise. It would also expand the high-rise cityscape considerably and flow it into the OU Med Center with its aggregated mid-rises.

[HangryHippo]

The Founders Tower uses a good model such has been used elsewhere. The reconstruction used quality materials and the finished product has nice amenities. When they didn't sell out quickly, they leased the units as apartments, starting with the lower levels. Some units sold, some rented. Now, if you want to buy, it helps to be in a rental unit and buy it, or wait for the floor-plan you want to become available. It is leased up and providing good income to the landlord and will eventually become all condo. This building would be a good fit now in downtown. Doing so at the Hill would provide great sunset, downtown and river vistas, and as a highrise would keep most of the units well above the expressway noise. It would also expand the high-rise cityscape considerably and flow it into the OU Med Center with its aggregated mid-rises.

Solid post, my friend. I agree 100%.

[Spartan]

I disagree slightly with Rover, although I agree with the premise that we need to be upholding construction standards better than we have. The only place I disagree with Rover is that I don't want want people going up to Quail Springs by default for an apartment priced $600-1000, as I do want that price range to continue to expand for downtown just as I want the upscale housing. I will however agree that I don't want Section 8 housing downtown, and I'm happy for 122nd and Quail Springs to remain the default for that.

We need to be building a few more thousand units each year in order to keep up with demand, AND to keep up with peer cities. Downtown housing is becoming a chief competition area for cities.

[Rover]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the affordable apartments developments shouldn't be progressing. Rather, the construction should be such that it doesn't deteriorate in 20-30 years and become blighted as cheap apartment complexes tend to do. If we are so all fired up to eradicate the suburbs, let's not just port the suburban problems to downtown. I thought urbanism was about sustaining quality of life, including sustaining quality of structures and uses. Secondly, there is wisdom in BALANCE. It appears there needs to be some new higher quality residential beginning downtown too, including some mid-rise units either for rent or sale. I am just arguing for quality and balance.

[Spartan]

Can you point out any "affordable apartments" that have been built and priced under $800/mo? Or are we still lamenting the Section$800/mo apartments? (Heritage Hills)

The market for $800-1500/mo is solid and proven. Above that, it's not as battle-tested, and the last time there was a battle (2008), they didn't hold up too well. Grant Humphreys was hurt pretty bad on Block 42. If he hadn't nearly lost his shirt just before the market picked back up again, he'd have already completed the Flatiron and started the Waterfront by now.

[dankrutka]

Rover, can you be more specific? Which apartments do think will deteorate? Can you list them? Thx.

[Good_lance]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the affordable apartments developments shouldn't be progressing. Rather, the construction should be such that it doesn't deteriorate in 20-30 years and become blighted as cheap apartment complexes tend to do. If we are so all fired up to eradicate the suburbs, let's not just port the suburban problems to downtown. I thought urbanism was about sustaining quality of life, including sustaining quality of structures and uses. Secondly, there is wisdom in BALANCE. It appears there needs to be some new higher quality residential beginning downtown too, including some mid-rise units either for rent or sale. I am just arguing for quality and balance.

Can somebody say the LEVEL.

[Rover]

Rover, can you be more specific? Which apartments do think will deteorate? Can you list them? Thx.

Sure. I think Legacy for sure, and possibly Level. I am not sold on the faux stucco. I hope I am wrong. We will see. Compared to what I have seen and been involved with in other cities, I think we should expect more.

[Good_lance]

I don't disagree with your assessment. With that in mind, it is going to be a VERY long time before C2S gets going. Also, if someone truly has the means to start spending 400K and up (at least in this market), they have the luxury of making a lifestyle decision, whether that is to be close to downtown, live in an urban environment, cut down on maintenance, etc. I don't think anyone expects these to rocket in value, but multifamily dwellings in general don't appreciate much in OKC, whether that's these or suburban condos off 63rd and Penn. But if you are happy with where you live, does it really matter?

There are indeed many affordable homes with close access to the CBD. I definitely wouldn't recommend Classen Ten Penn, but there are some nice bungalows in Gatewood nearby for 150K or less. Pretty much all inner northside neighborhoods have appreciated nicely over the past few years; from a percentage perspective, far more than most new suburban areas.

I am having the feeling that people that can afford $400k homes will be coming from all over the world to OKC. Where are all the people that going to work in the Devon building live?

[Good_lance]

Rover, can you be more specific? Which apartments do think will deteorate? Can you list them? Thx.

They have trash chute at the level

[Rover]

Can you point out any "affordable apartments" that have been built and priced under $800/mo? Or are we still lamenting the Section$800/mo apartments? (Heritage Hills)

The market for $800-1500/mo is solid and proven. Above that, it's not as battle-tested, and the last time there was a battle (2008), they didn't hold up too well. Grant Humphreys was hurt pretty bad on Block 42. If he hadn't nearly lost his shirt just before the market picked back up again, he'd have already completed the Flatiron and started the Waterfront by now.

Most residential builders were hurt by the worst recession since the great depression. It is no accident that development activity has picked up now and with historically low interest rates. Buying downtown with its appreciation potential and using less than 4% money to do it should make timing right for condos. Block 42 came at an inopportune time and was stretching the design boundaries. Something slightly more traditional may have done better with the market that can afford that price range.

Are you proposing we need to focus on apartments at under $800? That is pretty cheap, even in OKC. Do you believe we will get quality and sustaining construction with that target? Isn't that the target for the east btown apartments set to break ground soon?

[Good_lance]

Can you point out any "affordable apartments" that have been built and priced under $800/mo? Or are we still lamenting the Section$800/mo apartments? (Heritage Hills)

The market for $800-1500/mo is solid and proven. Above that, it's not as battle-tested, and the last time there was a battle (2008), they didn't hold up too well. Grant Humphreys was hurt pretty bad on Block 42. If he hadn't nearly lost his shirt just before the market picked back up again, he'd have already completed the Flatiron and started the Waterfront by now.

My two cents
I just moved to OKC a few months ago. In February to be exact. Back then, I think 4 houses on the hill were available. Back then, I am not too sure whether I want to rent or buy. Having lived in Europe/Australia a long time, I am used to good stuff and living in downtown.

The first thing that strikes me is that rent is expensive in OKC/bricktown. I have been to the LEVEL, and the legacy arts and deep deuce, I think at $1100 for a one bedroom is expensive for OKC. In Glasgow in the UK, a fully furnished apartment ( with leather sofa, real wooden floor unlike the cheap thing they put in on the level), pots and pans, tv, basically you just got to bring your clothes and you are good to go is going for around 700 pounds that is about $1100 dollars. That is the same price as the as rent in OKC. I think everybody here can say that, the rent in OKC/downtown will be the same or increase as long as people like me keep coming to OKC. Because I didn’t see anything I like to rent, I decided to buy. My realtor says she is dealing with a lot of people like me, want to rent, but can’t find a good place, and now thinking about buying.

Secondly, out of all the properties for sale I have seen in bricktown, I think the HILL make the most sense. The asking price for condos at 444 and central and the Maywood lofts are outrageously expensive compared to what they sold for a few years ago. Compared to asking prices in the UK at least in Glasgow, it is about the same. A two bedroom flat in Glasgow goes for like 250,000 pound (which is about $325k)

As I said before, townhouses near downtown in major cities in the USA are going for the same prices as the HILL and the brownstones. A friend of mine just brought a townhouse near downtown Denver for $374k for a 2100 sq ft. When I started reading this board from the beginning, I noticed that a lot of people didn’t like the HILL. I got the feeling it was because it was too expensive or because it didn’t fit what they hoped it would be. So my question now is, how much will you pay for a two bed room townhouse in Downtown OKC?
Lastly, as the economy gets better in the USA, and more people move to OKC because of energy jobs, and Devon finishes their building; the real estate in OKC will go off the roof.

[Good_lance]

I disagree slightly with Rover, although I agree with the premise that we need to be upholding construction standards better than we have. The only place I disagree with Rover is that I don't want want people going up to Quail Springs by default for an apartment priced $600-1000, as I do want that price range to continue to expand for downtown just as I want the upscale housing. I will however agree that I don't want Section 8 housing downtown, and I'm happy for 122nd and Quail Springs to remain the default for that.

We need to be building a few more thousand units each year in order to keep up with demand, AND to keep up with peer cities. Downtown housing is becoming a chief competition area for cities.

Spartan,
it looks like downtown OKC is something made up. Something the "authorities" has a vision for it to be. This vision doesn't make it feel like authentic downtown. Makes it feel superficial. The very creative people that make downtown feel like a downtown are left out. A true downtown should have a place for everybody. Even the homeless. ( Please don't take this as an insult.)

[ljbab728]

Spartan,
it looks like downtown OKC is something made up. Something the "authorities" has a vision for it to be. This vision doesn't make it feel like authentic downtown. Makes it feel superficial. The very creative people that make downtown feel like a downtown are left out. A true downtown should have a place for everybody. Even the homeless. ( Please don't take this as an insult.)

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It almost sounds like you're saying that everything downtown should just be organic and left to it's own devices so it will be authentic. What in the world does authentic mean? There has never been any decision from the city about what the price point for downtown housing should be. That is up the the developers as long as they follow normal building guidelines. OKC had an authentic downtown 70 years ago that doesn't exist now. We're finally on the right track to getting some of that back.

[Pete]

On the homeless issue, there is a new massive and elaborate complex on the west side of downtown just to administer to them and those in need.

[Sean]

My two cents
I just moved to OKC a few months ago. In February to be exact. Back then, I think 4 houses on the hill were available. Back then, I am not too sure whether I want to rent or buy. Having lived in Europe/Australia a long time, I am used to good stuff and living in downtown.

The first thing that strikes me is that rent is expensive in OKC/bricktown. I have been to the LEVEL, and the legacy arts and deep deuce, I think at $1100 for a one bedroom is expensive for OKC. In Glasgow in the UK, a fully furnished apartment ( with leather sofa, real wooden floor unlike the cheap thing they put in on the level), pots and pans, tv, basically you just got to bring your clothes and you are good to go is going for around 700 pounds that is about $1100 dollars. That is the same price as the as rent in OKC. I think everybody here can say that, the rent in OKC/downtown will be the same or increase as long as people like me keep coming to OKC. Because I didn’t see anything I like to rent, I decided to buy. My realtor says she is dealing with a lot of people like me, want to rent, but can’t find a good place, and now thinking about buying.

Secondly, out of all the properties for sale I have seen in bricktown, I think the HILL make the most sense. The asking price for condos at 444 and central and the Maywood lofts are outrageously expensive compared to what they sold for a few years ago. Compared to asking prices in the UK at least in Glasgow, it is about the same. A two bedroom flat in Glasgow goes for like 250,000 pound (which is about $325k)

As I said before, townhouses near downtown in major cities in the USA are going for the same prices as the HILL and the brownstones. A friend of mine just brought a townhouse near downtown Denver for $374k for a 2100 sq ft. When I started reading this board from the beginning, I noticed that a lot of people didn’t like the HILL. I got the feeling it was because it was too expensive or because it didn’t fit what they hoped it would be. So my question now is, how much will you pay for a two bed room townhouse in Downtown OKC?
Lastly, as the economy gets better in the USA, and more people move to OKC because of energy jobs, and Devon finishes their building; the real estate in OKC will go off the roof.

1 bedrooms at Level start at $850. I think that's a great deal. Good luck finding apartments of Level's quality and distance to downtown for 850/month in other cities.

[Spartan]

Most residential builders were hurt by the worst recession since the great depression. It is no accident that development activity has picked up now and with historically low interest rates. Buying downtown with its appreciation potential and using less than 4% money to do it should make timing right for condos. Block 42 came at an inopportune time and was stretching the design boundaries. Something slightly more traditional may have done better with the market that can afford that price range.

Are you proposing we need to focus on apartments at under $800? That is pretty cheap, even in OKC. Do you believe we will get quality and sustaining construction with that target? Isn't that the target for the east btown apartments set to break ground soon?

I agree that certain economic indices are now more favorable for condos again, but you can't ignore the huge lesson we just got told basically..condo saturation is a potentially scary thing. As for condo design, I know if I was in the market Block 42 or Central Ave Villas would be my top choices and there is no way in hell I'd pay for the Hill because I don't like the style. I think it fails to touch on the traditional in a way that is modern and tasteful, like the Brownstones do. So to each their own, and I know many prefer the traditional style of the Hill because now those have finally been sold off just like CAV/B42. We're in an okay place with those condos right now, and demand has visibly picked back up..

As for rents... I think we need to make sure that there are options with availability as low as $600/mo but those units should be small. I think that price point will evolve much like Sycamore did, as Legacy and other properties mature, those rents will adjust. I think we could use a few smallish historic buildings renovated into small efficiencies geared toward artists (something like the Marion property with say, 20 units, rather than 8 upscale units, for example). However I think that the sweet spot for downtown rental should continue to focus between $850-1600/mo which are by all means upscale apartments, especially if they're apts for one or two individuals.

In Chicago, one of my best friends growing up pays $1200/mo for a pretty nice 2br in Lakeview, a block off of Halsted. I think we need to realize that it is kind of a farce to assert that Chicago/NYC rents always begin at $2000/mo for an efficiency. In fact, I think the gulf between what you pay for un-authentic urban living in OKC and what you could pay for truly authentic urban living somewhere like Lakeview, is nowhere near as huge as we like to think (and then it's a simple fact that you're making so much more money in Chicago). Not every authentic urban neighborhood in America is Chelsea or the South Loop...

[Rover]

I think you hit a good point Spartan about smaller for rent apartments. I know in Manhattan they are trying to approve lowering the minimum size of an apartment to make it affordable. If we can provide 500-750 ft apartments/efficiencies for the price point you suggest then the developer can deliver a quality product and make money.

Yes Chicago is less, but they WAY WAY overbuilt and many projects went under and had to be picked up by a succeeding owner who got great deals to finish out. Those prices will come back as the economy recovers more fully. Shoot, I never did get paid, or at least full amount, for work on some of the projects in Chicago the last four years. And in NYC, most of the more affordable apartments are in Brooklyn, Queens, etc and the people commute in to Manhattan. The apartments in Manhattan in areas you actually want to live in do start at $3-4,000 for small one bed room or efficiencies. I don't know a lot of areas where in the most desirable areas there are cheap apartments. Instead they take multiple roommates and make do.

[Good_lance]

I agree that certain economic indices are now more favorable for condos again, but you can't ignore the huge lesson we just got told basically..condo saturation is a potentially scary thing. As for condo design, I know if I was in the market Block 42 or Central Ave Villas would be my top choices and there is no way in hell I'd pay for the Hill because I don't like the style. I think it fails to touch on the traditional in a way that is modern and tasteful, like the Brownstones do. So to each their own, and I know many prefer the traditional style of the Hill because now those have finally been sold off just like CAV/B42. We're in an okay place with those condos right now, and demand has visibly picked back up..

As for rents... I think we need to make sure that there are options with availability as low as $600/mo but those units should be small. I think that price point will evolve much like Sycamore did, as Legacy and other properties mature, those rents will adjust. I think we could use a few smallish historic buildings renovated into small efficiencies geared toward artists (something like the Marion property with say, 20 units, rather than 8 upscale units, for example). However I think that the sweet spot for downtown rental should continue to focus between $850-1600/mo which are by all means upscale apartments, especially if they're apts for one or two individuals.

In Chicago, one of my best friends growing up pays $1200/mo for a pretty nice 2br in Lakeview, a block off of Halsted. I think we need to realize that it is kind of a farce to assert that Chicago/NYC rents always begin at $2000/mo for an efficiency. In fact, I think the gulf between what you pay for un-authentic urban living in OKC and what you could pay for truly authentic urban living somewhere like Lakeview, is nowhere near as huge as we like to think (and then it's a simple fact that you're making so much more money in Chicago). Not every authentic urban neighborhood in America is Chelsea or the South Loop...

Spartan,
Will you pay $295k for a 1300 sq ft at the central villas or $275k for 1100 sq ft at the Maywood wood park? I just want to have an idea how much money people are willing to pay for a condo.

[Good_lance]

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It almost sounds like you're saying that everything downtown should just be organic and left to it's own devices so it will be authentic. What in the world does authentic mean? There has never been any decision from the city about what the price point for downtown housing should be. That is up the the developers as long as they follow normal building guidelines. OKC had an authentic downtown 70 years ago that doesn't exist now. We're finally on the right track to getting some of that back.

Bricktown to me feels touristic. It looks that people just come to bricktown to have a good time, and go back to where they live.