OKC Commuter Rail

[shawnw]

Either Walker or Robinson, the latter of which potentially helps Hubcap Alley activate.

[BoulderSooner]

For the record I think our route would have been great for a phase 2. For phase 1 I would have done a straight line up Walker from SW 25th to NW 23rd. That's 4 miles of track but immediately useful to neighborhoods. We could have done another 3 miles perpendicular on Sheridan or something to reach Bricktown/Santa Fe in Phase 1, and then closed up the loop in Phase 2. But what's done is done and I'm on board. Pun intended.

You 23rd to south 25th. Would be 8 miles of track (would have to be double tracked). And 3 miles on Sheridan would be 6 track miles.

So 14. Way way more than our entire started system

[shawnw]

I was going by the 7 mile number I keep hearing, didn't think about the double track thing.

[Teo9969]

The streetcar will be a failure if we don't get an RTA going and expand the system...it's just that simple.

That being said, given the overall unwalkability of the expanse that is downtown, this route, I believe, most aids our goals in our most urban area. Using miles of track to sledge through HH/MP to get to 23rd or to the Plaza to connect "urban centers" would have resulted an even less functional initial system, because OKC is still working on creating its first convincing urban center, and the Plaza will likely never be that, and 23rd is probably a decade away.

The reality is that 23rd/Capitol Hill/The Plaza are not destinations worthy of connecting to downtown in and of themselves. They're destinations worthy of service from a much more comprehensive and MUCH more expensive system, yes...but at that point, we're really throwing in a dozen different destinations to the overall plan and talking about making our city more connected and passing a measure to provide the funding necessary.

[shawnw]

I think there are two edges to that sword (so I don't disagree with you fundamentally). However, if we don't get the ridership, the streetcar could also be seen as a failure. If you connect neighborhoods to work centers you get ridership, and that's the angle I was taking.

[riflesforwatie]

I agree with Teo. I have some objections to the streetcar from the perspective of where it places our transit priorities (i.e., it's not clear that the streetcar really *helps* the most vulnerable among us that rely on public transit for their livelihoods, but it's also not clear, as I think Teo's post points to, that connecting to Plaza or 23rd or Capital Hill fixes that issue). But if you're going to build a streetcar as an initial investment in extending the *idea* of public transit to a larger percentage of the populace, Midtown/CDB/Bricktown is the best place to do it because it's the only place where you ever have a chance of getting dense enough development (especially housing) to show people *how* an urban center can work. Plaza/23rd/Cap Hill are cool but they're fundamentally "suburban" in the sense that they're dominated by single family homes on decent-sized lots (with a few exceptions here and there).

[hoya]

I agree with Teo. I have some objections to the streetcar from the perspective of where it places our transit priorities (i.e., it's not clear that the streetcar really *helps* the most vulnerable among us that rely on public transit for their livelihoods, but it's also not clear, as I think Teo's post points to, that connecting to Plaza or 23rd or Capital Hill fixes that issue). But if you're going to build a streetcar as an initial investment in extending the *idea* of public transit to a larger percentage of the populace, Midtown/CDB/Bricktown is the best place to do it because it's the only place where you ever have a chance of getting dense enough development (especially housing) to show people *how* an urban center can work. Plaza/23rd/Cap Hill are cool but they're fundamentally "suburban" in the sense that they're dominated by single family homes on decent-sized lots (with a few exceptions here and there).

Yeah, the streetcar isn't designed to help the poor people.

This streetcar is designed to get suburban Okies who have money to come downtown and ride around and become comfortable with the idea of mass transit. Also to get some of them to consider moving downtown and experiencing a different lifestyle than they are used to. Joe Bob Johnson from Tuttle is going to suspiciously get on the streetcar, and he's going to look around at everybody, waiting to get mugged. When he rides it a bit, and figures out that he can park his car at Bass Pro and then ride around to all the cool stuff downtown, he'll like it more. He's heard that Fassler Hall has lots of beer, and sausage made out of different animals. He wants to try that. And then he can ride the streetcar back to the Thunder game, and then ride it again back to his car.

The streetcar at its current size may not be too much more than a novelty. I don't know that we'll get enough ridership outside of special events to really keep it full. But once everyone is used to the idea, extending it again to hit 23rd street, or to go down into Capitol Hill, and you can start increasing the number of passengers pretty quickly. It's really in a "proof of concept" stage right now. You got to get people used to the idea first.

[hoya]

The streetcar will be a failure if we don't get an RTA going and expand the system...it's just that simple.

That being said, given the overall unwalkability of the expanse that is downtown, this route, I believe, most aids our goals in our most urban area. Using miles of track to sledge through HH/MP to get to 23rd or to the Plaza to connect "urban centers" would have resulted an even less functional initial system, because OKC is still working on creating its first convincing urban center, and the Plaza will likely never be that, and 23rd is probably a decade away.

The reality is that 23rd/Capitol Hill/The Plaza are not destinations worthy of connecting to downtown in and of themselves. They're destinations worthy of service from a much more comprehensive and MUCH more expensive system, yes...but at that point, we're really throwing in a dozen different destinations to the overall plan and talking about making our city more connected and passing a measure to provide the funding necessary.

The streetcar can be a success without the RTA, it would just require expanding it into the appropriate areas. Go down Robinson to SW 25th, then over to Western and back up, and you will get the Capitol Hill area and the Wheeler District. It will also go by the Farmer's Market area and the western edge of Strawberry Fields. Now, it may take 15 to 20 years before Wheeler and Strawberry Fields have any real density of residents, but it will take at least 10 before we get an expansion going anyway. If we're putting tracks in the ground for Phase 2 in 2027, I'll be happy.