SandRidge Center & Commons

[Rover]

Glad some on here consider me ignorant.

Though I am not an architect I have been in the construction business worldwide for over 20 years and have had projects in approximately 30 countries. (And I slept at a Holiday Inn Express. )

Cities like Vancouver are not just long streets of buildings up to the street with long canyons of buildings. There are many projects there where the building is set back from the street and surrounded by plazas and fountains. The cities many mention on here like Chicago, NYC, San Francisco are not reasonable examples of what OKC will be able to achieve in multiple lifetimes. We are more like Melbourne. Or even maybe we can aspire to create a modern environment of plazas like old European Cities. I love Lyon, France with a major plaza in the middle of town and low-mid rise streets and tree lined boulevards and corniches along the river. We will not be Hong Kong or Singapore but can be something we can enjoy during the next 50 years. Plazas overlooked by cafes and coffee shops, next to boutique hotels and condos would be quite nice. There is more than the Americanized version of what urban spaces are.

[Popsy]

Rover. That was the most intelligent post I have read in this forum in the almost five years I have been a member of OKC Talk. I care as much as the next guy for downtown OKC and what it looks like. I do not however, share the views of many on this board, but I do respect their right to have those views. I just think they are banging their heads against a wall to think as Metro and Spartan that they can actually impact a decision. I will be absolutely shocked if the city council supports any ideas other that Sandridge's. Furthermore, any one with any sense at all would realize that there will never be another speculative tower built as long as so much vacant space remains downtown. Also, Sandridge is in the oil business, not the apartment or condo building business and it is absolute insanity to think they should. Grow up.

Urbanized. Congratulations on having the comprehension skills to detect that I was responding to Spartan with tongue in cheek. I did not for a minute think that Spartan or Metro would take it for anything other than stroking their egos.

If the group can convince Sandridge to drop their plans through the city council, then my hat is off to you.

[Kerry]

Glad some on here consider me ignorant.

Though I am not an architect I have been in the construction business worldwide for over 20 years and have had projects in approximately 30 countries. (And I slept at a Holiday Inn Express. )

Cities like Vancouver are not just long streets of buildings up to the street with long canyons of buildings. There are many projects there where the building is set back from the street and surrounded by plazas and fountains. The cities many mention on here like Chicago, NYC, San Francisco are not reasonable examples of what OKC will be able to achieve in multiple lifetimes. We are more like Melbourne. Or even maybe we can aspire to create a modern environment of plazas like old European Cities. I love Lyon, France with a major plaza in the middle of town and low-mid rise streets and tree lined boulevards and corniches along the river. We will not be Hong Kong or Singapore but can be something we can enjoy during the next 50 years. Plazas overlooked by cafes and coffee shops, next to boutique hotels and condos would be quite nice. There is more than the Americanized version of what urban spaces are.

Rover, the difference between OKC and place like NY, Chicago, San Fran, Vancouver is that they already have very dense verticle business districts. If someone wants to bring in plazas and open space to those cities then that is unique and new to them. We already have plenty of open space in downtown OKC, with more to come. Making another plaza in downtown OKC isn't something new, it is just more of the same.

If you ever get a chance to walk the streets of downtown Jax take it. There are very few plazas and open areas and even fewer surface parking lots. When you are on the streets of downtown Jax it has a very urban feel. Much more so than downtown OKC. Check it out via Google Earth.

[Rover]

Architect 2010...Since you called me out and implied I am ignorant, I am just curious as to how many world urban areas you have actually spent time in, lived in or worked in. There is a difference about reading theory in a book and observing how cities develop a character. There are many many ways to create livable, enjoyable urban centers. I have visited hundreds of large, medium and small cities in more than 30 countries in all continents except Antarctica. I have found that the most memorable ones are unique and have cultural character. It isn't in street walls or urban canyons where cities are formed. It is in developing areas where the character, personality and culture of the region can be enjoyed. Salt Lake City has sprawling wide streets while Milano has narrow cobblestone urban arteries. Both are pleasant and regionally appropriate. Oklahoma City just needs to keep moving forward and adapting itself and in 100 years we will see what it will become. It will not be the vision of outside experts, but the trial and error successes and failures.

[Kerry]

It will not be the vision of outside experts, but the trial and error successes and failures.

I'm not A2010 but I think this is exactly what we are driving at. OKC already tried the "tearn down in favor of open space" route and it destroyed the central city for 40+ years. The key part of trial and error is to recognize the errors and not repeat them. Otherwise, you just have error and failure. Plazas and open space are not helping to rebuild downtown OKC - emphasis on the rebuild.

[MikeOKC]

Rover, the difference between OKC and place like NY, Chicago, San Fran, Vancouver is that they already have very dense verticle business districts. If someone wants to bring in plazas and open space to those cities then that is unique and new to them. We already have plenty of open space in downtown OKC, with more to come. Making another plaza in downtown OKC isn't something new, it is just more of the same.
If you ever get a chance to walk the streets of downtown Jax take it. There are very few plazas and open areas and even fewer surface parking lots. When you are on the streets of downtown Jax it has a very urban feel. Much more so than downtown OKC. Check it out via Google Earth.

That's a very good point, Kerry. Everything is relative and we already have so much of the open space and plaza atmosphere in our downtown.

[mheaton76]

Making another plaza in downtown OKC isn't something new, it is just more of the same.

The Robinson corridor, and a precious few other segments of downtown are the only in the entire 640 or so sq./mile of OKC that feel urban AT ALL. Can we at least have these few? I don't want my city to be one big suburb...

[ljbab728]

There are many many ways to create livable, enjoyable urban centers. I have visited hundreds of large, medium and small cities in more than 30 countries in all continents except Antarctica. I have found that the most memorable ones are unique and have cultural character. It isn't in street walls or urban canyons where cities are formed. It is in developing areas where the character, personality and culture of the region can be enjoyed.

Rover, I agree that there are many ways to create enjoyable urban centers but I'm not sure I understand how having more open space and plazas around our downtown office buildings makes us unique with cultural character. I feel more of that in areas like Automobile Alley or Midtown and hopefully the Film Exchange Areas soon.

[HOT ROD]

the key is, if they tear down the buildings, they need to replace with new vertical buildings. It is not so much to keep empty buildings, it is to keep urban fabric and the ONLY true skyscraper canyon in the whole state intact.

again, they can tear it down but they need to have solid plans/financing to replace - even with garages with street level retail; would work.

And as someone else mentioned, OKC should model itself after other cities with large skyscraper cores - NY, Chicago, SF, Vancouver all come to mind. Those cities can afford to lose a canyon or two because they have solid business districts of more than 300 skyscrapers.

This is what we should shoot for, we already have the plazas and open space that those cities are now building more. We need the buildings and keep/replace what we have.

[metro]

Wow, even the CITY thinks the plan is too suburban...

Sandridge's campus plan is seen as too suburban
BY STEVE LACKMEYER | Oklahoman
Published: March 16, 2010

The Downtown Design Review Committee is being advised by the Oklahoma City Planning Department to deny an application by SandRidge Energy to tear down four buildings on its downtown campus.

This building at 111 Robert S. Kerr may be the oldest downtown structure, having been built as the home of the India Temple in 1902. A facade was added in the 1960 and SandRidge Energy argues the structure is no longer historic. Preservation advocates argue the original facade may still be intact under the concrete facade. By David McDaniel

The city report suggests that the company is seeking to make a very urban block "suburban.”



Read more: NewsOK

[Pete]

they can tear it down but they need to have solid plans/financing to replace

This is another critical point and is completely missing from the way we allow for demolition in OKC.

Right now, anyone can demolish almost anything without having a plan approved for what will go in it's place, or needing to demonstrate they have the means to actually do something with the property.

It's one thing if a property is a nuisance; it's quite another to allow companies to rip things down without any specific plan or the money set aside to improve the vacant land.

Way too often, a developer or corporation has ambitious plans but they are never realized because the economy (or their personal fortunes) changes, and then the city is left with a big scar. This has happened time and time again and nothing seems to have changed from a planning/permitting perspective.

And all this is completely separate from historic preservation issues.

[mugofbeer]

I've not really had much of an opinion on this issue but I want to say I am impressed with the commentaries of a lot of your pertaining to the preservation of the urban "feel" and historical aspects - and then to see the commentaries in the article in the Oklahoman. Good work!

[progressiveboy]

This is another critical point and is completely missing from the way we allow for demolition in OKC.

Right now, anyone can demolish almost anything without having a plan approved for what will go in it's place, or needing to demonstrate they have the means to actually do something with the property.

It's one thing if a property is a nuisance; it's quite another to allow companies to rip things down without any specific plan or the money set aside to improve the vacant land.

Way too often, a developer or corporation has ambitious plans but they are never realized because the economy (or their personal fortunes) changes, and then the city is left with a big scar. This has happened time and time again and nothing seems to have changed from a planning/permitting perspective.

And all this is completely separate from historic preservation issues.

Agree. This is why corporations that are based in the city (or any city for that matter), that provides good jobs should always be a "good corporate citizen" and should have a good sense of responsibility for what truly is important in a city! They need to have an awareness and "open mind" about trying things from a different perspectives and not just the "status quo". The city needs to make a reasonable effort and get different opinions on trying to save the India Temple building and if there are any other adaptive uses for the other buildings. I am sure Tom Ward is a good man, however in this case he needs to surely think "outside the box".

[ronronnie1]

Did they actually think they were just going to start tearing down buildings and nobody would notice? Horrible move on Sandwhatever's part.

[soonerguru]

Kudos to the Urban Design Committee if they follow through on their comments. Sandridge can alter its plans.

[Kerry]

Did they actually think they were just going to start tearing down buildings and nobody would notice? Horrible move on Sandwhatever's part.

Well, they kind of had a big annoucement about it. It isn't like they tried to do this under the cover of darkness. They were pretty open about it.

[andy157]

So, everyone wants to keep useless and ugly buildings that in and of themselves have little to no historic merit just because they have "mass" and are mass at the corners? Wow. Some people need to get to some of the more dynamic cities in the country and see progressive urbanism at work and what it can do.

Your darn right we do. If Sandridge wants to destroy something let them move to Houston.

[OKC@heart]

Your darn right we do. If Sandridge wants to destroy something let them move to Houston.

Andy, please extinguish your torch and set down the pitch fork for a moment. I admire your passion for the cause of preserving the urban density but we by no means want to ask or even give off the impression that we want Sandridge to roll up thier carpet and move...that is exactly what we don't need in this economy. We need more corporations that provide high wage jobs to further improve the local economy. What is being generally agreed upon here is that there is a balance that needs to be struck with our corporate citizens and the city in which they have chosen to reside. We want to encourage the growth and development of those companies so we reinforce that Oklahoma City is infact what we have worked hard to market to the world, a great place to do business and that we as a city can be a great partner in thier accomplishing thier goal for growth and corporate identity. To do otherwise at a time when we have all of this great media attention would be damning to our aspired aims.

That said, Sandridge has an obligation to respect the city that it has become a major stakeholder in and exemplify that it will be a longterm partner who desires only for the combined sucess of both to increase. Sandridge is excited about the future of OKC and have shown that they want to participate. We just need to help them understand through the appropriate commities, gently but firmly what is and is not good for the denisty of our city.

The buildings that cannot be adapted or preserved should not be, however they should be replaced with something that will keep the place, and not allow for the suburbanization of the CBD. There is a great discussion taking place in other areas of this forum on the deannexation of some of the most rural areas that are hurting our density and siphoning away precious resources that could otherwise be used more effectively to improve the cities infrastructure. The last thing we need is less density smack dab in the middle of downtown.

The key from here is now how the city will work with Sandridge to preserve what they can that worked from the plans (which cost them a significant amount) and revise them so that it will help reach a mutually sucessful end that will enhance and strengthen the sense of urbanity and density along the streets while inviting the public to participate and engage with the Sandridge corporate properties. Lets hope that pride and egos are able to be avoided so that truly a sucessful proposal can be born of this excercise. This will further reinforce the notion that OKC is a great place to do business and a reasonable partner, that cares enough about its own destiny to say no, when needed but to participate to find a workable solution so they can say yes and move forward together.

[rcjunkie]

IMO, if these buildings were that valuable (financially and historically), why hasn't someone stepped forward and done something with these properties. If I understand correctly, most have set vacant for a number of years. What's worse, buildings gone or buildings vacant and continuing to fall into disrepair.

[Kerry]

IMO, if these buildings were that valuable (financially and historically), why hasn't someone stepped forward and done something with these properties. If I understand correctly, most have set vacant for a number of years. What's worse, buildings gone or buildings vacant and continuing to fall into disrepair.

That was actually in the process of happening when Kerr McGee was sold. Kerr McGee planned to turn these building into residential buildings.

[mheaton76]

What's worse, buildings gone or buildings vacant and continuing to fall into disrepair.

Buildings gone, definitely. The rehabilitation of vacant/in despair buildings in midtown, auto alley, deep deuce, and bricktown show it's possible, and desirable, to save what some would be willing to tear down. Besides, it's not like these are totally dilapidated, boarded up and completely beyond repair. I still hope they are adapted for reuse at some point.

[Urbanized]

OKC@heart, I'm pretty sure that andy157 was being sarcastic.

[Steve]

IMO, if these buildings were that valuable (financially and historically), why hasn't someone stepped forward and done something with these properties. If I understand correctly, most have set vacant for a number of years. What's worse, buildings gone or buildings vacant and continuing to fall into disrepair.

I've been told the only thing that has stood in the way of these buildings being adapted into housing similar to the Park Harvey building is the willingness of an owner to step aside and let it happen. These buildings have had multiple developers eager to convert them into apartments or condos.

[Popsy]

Steve. Why aren't these developers stepping up to make offers on those buildings. Seems to me that those developers were counting on Kerr Mcgee paying for it. Sandridge is not in the business of developing living units and they should not be expected to finance it. Who knows, perhaps OKC Talk could get Obama to give them a grant to buy and rehab those buildings and perhaps Metro would be willing to lead the way in seeking that grant.

[Steve]

Popsy, they have!