Holiday Inn Express

[Rover]

However, time will tell so if it turns out bad we will all know for the next time.

LOL. I thought it was you, or maybe Spartan, that admonished me that the time to be up in arms was up front and not to wait until the die is cast. That's what a good activist does, I was told.

[Just the facts]

LOL. I thought it was you, or maybe Spartan, that admonished me that the time to be up in arms was up front and not to wait until the die is cast. That's what a good activist does, I was told.

Good point. I'll tell you what, you convinced me. As Urbanized pointed out, if they want to increase the standards to cover this I would be all for it.

[Stew]

It is not a "big city type of AC", it is the indication of the quality of construction and businesses we prefer. This is not an elitist requirement. It is not the type of AC that is the point of contention, but the quality of the building we expect. It is time we in OKC quit favoring the cheap and quick over the good and sustaining type of city. You can put crap next to the sidewalk and it doesn't make it quality urban. You can clad a barn with brick and it doesn't make it a quality building. Let's quilt looking only at the superficial aspects of design and put some meat on the bones.

Hey why don't you lead by example and build the kind of hotel that meets your level of quality.

[BigD Misey]

I think every Holiday Inn has PTAC's these days. Not to be confused with window A/Cs that protrude from the windows.
Not entirely unsitely for affordable accomodations.

[Mel]

I may not be the smartest poster here but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[Rover]

I think every Holiday Inn has PTAC's these days. Not to be confused with window A/Cs that protrude from the windows.
Not entirely unsitely for affordable accomodations.

That is not true that they all have PTACs. And it isn't an aesthetics issue. They waste energy. Are noisy inside and out. And you create an additional penetration through the exterior wall for each unit creating future structure problems with air and water infiltration. And, many create condensation stains on the exterior because of inadequate condensation removal technique. They lack proper control of ventilation air and do a poor job of controlling humidity. But they are used to avoid the cost of a proper central system. So, it isn't a visual issue as they are often disguised behind decorative grilles.

[Rover]

Hey why don't you lead by example and build the kind of hotel that meets your level of quality.

That is your answer to improving standards? Anyone suggesting a better way must first build a building or develop a city if you want to comment on urban planning or design? I guess architects and engineers are only right if they are willing to also become a developer. Lol.

[BigD Misey]

WOW. Thank for the correction. But, i dont remember saying PTACs are the best suited.
But, you are correct, i should have typed ALOT of newly costructed Holiday Inn expresses have PTACs.
Also, and this is just an opinion, not what is holy and absolute, i dont feel they are unsightly. Maybe ive just stayed in well maintained ones. But, It hasnt deterred me in the past.
(Entering: 'ignominious viewer' mode now)

[Anonymous.]

Looks like all of the rubble is moved from the site and the clean slate is ready to be built.

[Rover]

WOW. Thank for the correction. But, i dont remember saying PTACs are the best suited.
But, you are correct, i should have typed ALOT of newly costructed Holiday Inn expresses have PTACs.
Also, and this is just an opinion, not what is holy and absolute, i dont feel they are unsightly. Maybe ive just stayed in well maintained ones. But, It hasnt deterred me in the past.
(Entering: 'ignominious viewer' mode now)

You would be correct in saying MOST HI Exp go with PTACs. That is because they are considered at the lower end of the hotel spectrum as budget priced limited service hotels where people pretty well have low expectations. If they are clean, safe and have free cereal for breakfast they have done their job.

[Pete]

From today:

[betts]

You would be correct in saying MOST HI Exp go with PTACs. That is because they are considered at the lower end of the hotel spectrum as budget priced limited service hotels where people pretty well have low expectations. If they are clean, safe and have free cereal for breakfast they have done their job.

I expect a waffle maker in addition to cereal these days. My expectations have risen!

[kevinpate]

I expect a waffle maker in addition to cereal these days. My expectations have risen!

nah. Bacon, bacon, bacon and, oh yeah, more bacon is where life (or at least mornings) should begin. If there also happens to be some reasonably fresh sausage gravy for a biscuit or three, that's like hap hap happy birthday to me.

[Spartan]

If the window A/C units are an issue - and as I have said before in other posts, I agree they are not optimal - that needs to be changed in the design ordinance for Bricktown, not offered up spur-of-the-moment at a design review meeting. Judging by many of the comments I see here and even from committee members themselves sometimes, I think there is generally a VERY poor understanding of the purpose and purview of this committee. Their job is to review new projects and determine whether or not they comply with AN EXISTING, VERY COMPREHENSIVE SET OF DESIGN GUIDELINES, which were compiled over the years BY A VERY QUALIFIED AND TRAINED GROUP OF PLANNERS within the Oklahoma City's Planning Department, PEOPLE WHO HAVE VERY SPECIFIC AND COMPREHENSIVE EDUCATION AND TRAINING in this regard. The guidelines were developed with community input, and using the best practices gleaned from basic urban planning principles and other successful and similar districts throughout the country.

The BUDC is not SUPPOSED to be the taste police, despite comments and actions to the contrary by them and by others.

Much like judges don't write the laws but instead interpret laws already on the books - written by lawmakers, not judges - this group is SUPPOSED to enforce the existing guidelines, pure and simple. Over the years I have become convinced that some of them not only don't bother to familiarize themselves with the EXISTING, COMPREHENSIVE GUIDELINES (Steve makes this point in his blog post), they often don't seem to even read the DETAILED PACKETS THEY ARE GIVEN BEFORE MEETINGS ON EACH PROJECT BEFORE THEM. It is not uncommon to show up and be asked by a commissioner, "OK, so tell me what you have here...", with the impression being given that they haven't even studied the plans. It's as if whatever pops into their heads in the moment - while reviewing a plan on-the-fly - should be considered gospel. These plans are often at that point only after hours of expensive work by an architect, and hours of consultation with City planning staff.

The idea that it's OK to review these expensive plans and make on-the-fly recommendations/demands THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EXISTING GUIDELINES is pure arrogance and self-indulgence. It creates project delays, requires additional expense on the part of developers, and surely has a chilling effect on future development.

If a new wrinkle emerges that justifies attention, fine. They (or anyone else who thinks it should be changed/amended) need to take it up with the Planning Department and have the existing design ordinance modified before some other project is proposed with similar issues. The air conditioner thing is a perfect example. Instead of simply bitching about it or saddling an existing project with expensive design changes based on whim, GET WITH THE PLANNING DEPARTMENT AND HAVE CHANGES MADE. In this case, it seems like a worthy subject to address.

As for the entrance, I think the first one was fine. It boldly identifies the entrance, puts a modern twist on a building that other than that still closely echoes the historic buildings around it (this is a very appropriate approach to infill construction in an HP district, though Bricktown is NOT even technically an HP district). I also think it visually honors the bold modern architecture of Aloft, which can easily be seen from the street in front of Holiday Inn. I doubt this was an accident.

Again, as Steve pointed out in his blog post, the original entrance proposed pretty clearly complies with existing design guidelines, and comments made by the most critical committee member (who is by the way not an architect or a planner by trade) make you wonder if he is even familiar with the existing guidelines for the district he represents. It appears that he is instead relying solely on personal taste, which is an incredibly slippery slope. If he's not relying on personal taste he is apparently relying on a bad interpretation of the guidelines, which maybe even more concerning.

Now, based on taste-based committee member comments that I believe are out of bounds, the developer had to pay their architect to come up with new designs that don't IMO "fix" anything. I think the most recent options are at the best watered-down/dumbed-down versions of the original, and some of them are not very good at all. The architect was obviously casting a wide net in an effort to find SOMETHING that resonates with the undocumented personal taste of a committee member. The only thing accomplished here is expense and delay, all borne by the developer, who appears to be trying very hard. It's a shame that they were required to change it, and even more shameful that the project is now delayed once again due to BUDC members not attending this meeting and a quorum not being reached. If I were the hotel developer, I would frankly be pissed. Heck, I'm not even attached to the project and I'm obviously worked up.

Instead of indulging their own egos, committee members for this and other like boards would be best served to study, study, study, both the existing guidelines AND the individual project/staff recommendations, and to act accordingly. Every project includes a recommendation by a trained, professional planner on the City staff, usually either "approve" or "deny" with detailed explanations as to why staff is making the recommendation. If committee members stuck faithfully to these recommendations and defended them vigorously as much as possible, Bricktown (and other districts subject to similar reveiw) would be much better off.

-30-

Urbanized - you've done a lot with the city in the last 20 years. Curious, have you thrown your hat in the ring for this committee? You'd certainly be qualified.

[Spartan]

LOL. I thought it was you, or maybe Spartan, that admonished me that the time to be up in arms was up front and not to wait until the die is cast. That's what a good activist does, I was told.

The time to evaluate these things is up front, when a difference can be made, rather than to complain later when you could have made a difference. For me, when a project is DONE that's when I don my homer cap and pretend (convince myself if I can) that it's a wonderful addition to our city. Like Legacy, you'll notice I'm the least critical person on that, but if a NEW one was proposed...you better get out of my way. Does that make sense?

We pay professionals to be qualified to assess building permits, renderings, and site plans. We should take advantage of this process.

[Rover]

The time to evaluate these things is up front, when a difference can be made, rather than to complain later when you could have made a difference. For me, when a project is DONE that's when I don my homer cap and pretend (convince myself if I can) that it's a wonderful addition to our city. Like Legacy, you'll notice I'm the least critical person on that, but if a NEW one was proposed...you better get out of my way. Does that make sense?

We pay professionals to be qualified to assess building permits, renderings, and site plans. We should take advantage of this process.

Very much agree. Well stated.

[HangryHippo]

Very much agree. Well stated.

+1.

[Urbanized]

Urbanized - you've done a lot with the city in the last 20 years. Curious, have you thrown your hat in the ring for this committee? You'd certainly be qualified.

Thanks for the kind words. I would love to participate in that process (though there are PLENTY of FAR more qualified folks in the community), but it complicates things that my company is a City contractor. I'm not sure if I would even be ALLOWED to throw my hat into the ring on something like that, but also I think the relationship would potentially undermine my ability to make decisions that on occasion can (and even should) be politically unpopular. Decisions made by bodies like BUDC should be made without consideration of how "doing the right thing" might affect your own personal livelihood. As we have seen in the past, that leads to some pretty neutered decision-making.

[Pete]

Found these more detailed renderings:

[CaptDave]

I honestly do not see much to fuss about in that design. This is the original is it not?

[Just the facts]

I love the signs, especially the one on the corner just over the sidewalk, and those blue accent lights are great.

[Anonymous.]

Yea the corner signage is perfect. This will liven up this corner so much. Great design!

[betts]

I like it and I think it suits Bricktown.

[Urbanized]

NM, shouldn't post after beers. Yes, the design suits Bricktown very well. It's a shame and an outrage that the design was controversial in any way. That's all I will say about that.

[Just the facts]

NM, shouldn't post after beers.

You wouldn't be the first person to PM Pete on a Saturday afternoon asking to remove a post.