Guyutes

[twade]

Street parking is open to anyone in mesta park and HH

Yes, I realize that. I think the issue is not whether it's permissible, but a matter of whether expectations (founded or unfounded) are being met. I believe some were assured that adequate on-site parking would be provided for Guyutes. It has been rumored that overflow parking would occur at the plasma bank, but apparently access is being denied at that location.

I think it's a challenge not unique to this project. It's one residents of the inner-ring, particularly the Plaza District face: where do we put the number of cars commuting into the area? It's nice to have all the development. For many, we bought in this area to be around the excitment, but still carry many ideas of "politeness." For example, don't park in front of your neighbors house if there is room outside your own, ect.

For many adjusting to the new inflow, it's probably a matter of practice and expectation. If you haven't had cars parking outside your home and that changes, I would expect that to upset some people. In some ways, I think the neighborhood is handling it better than more suburban neighborhoods might. However, people are prone to push back on things they believe affect the perceived desirability of their property.

I think many welcome the revitalization of 23rd and other areas, but it has to be a partnership. I think Guyutes has been a great partner thus far, and I think the issues will be resolved. I think they know how to manage the situation. However, if a solution isn't arrived at, I'd expect stronger opposition to future projects--particularly from residents closest to the progress (21st and 22nd Streets).

[Mr. Cotter]

They'll get used to it, or move. There are plenty of people who want to live close to all the stuff other people are driving to. A city street is a public space, and if you're parked legally, no other consideration needs to be given.

[edcrunk]

I've been twice now and never had a problem parking. I parked on 23rd street both times.

[Urban Pioneer]

Also, they were live streaming the Phish show last night.... something you don't see everyday in OKC.

LOLZ. Probably for good reason. No, that is cool that they feel liberated enough to live stream Phish without being in Colorado or Oregon.

Def will make the trip back out to enjoy OKC's diversifying scene.

[ljbab728]

We went tonight prior to going to a play at the nearby Jewel Box Theater and I was able to park on 23rd just a very short walk away. We arrived about 6:30PM. The downstairs was very full but there was almost nobody on the roof so that's where we went. The staff were all very friendly and efficient. I was going to have the meatloaf but our waitress said if I liked spicy food it wasn't very spicy. She suggested either the Guyute (pork belly) or the Pork Tornado. I has the Pork Tornado and it was excellent and definitely spicy. The food and drinks were at the table in about 5 minutes so I was impressed by that. There were a few nitpicky issues but nothing that would keep me from going back. When you're on the roof the floor shakes when people are walking. I only noticed that when I was thinking about it though. I thought the music was one notch too loud for comfortable conversation but I'm sure a lot of people like it like that. I noticed one other thing that didn't affect me at all. In part of the first floor area it was so dark people were having to use the light from their cell phones to see the menu.

[Teo9969]

Yes, I realize that. I think the issue is not whether it's permissible, but a matter of whether expectations (founded or unfounded) are being met. I believe some were assured that adequate on-site parking would be provided for Guyutes. It has been rumored that overflow parking would occur at the plasma bank, but apparently access is being denied at that location.

I think it's a challenge not unique to this project. It's one residents of the inner-ring, particularly the Plaza District face: where do we put the number of cars commuting into the area? It's nice to have all the development. For many, we bought in this area to be around the excitment, but still carry many ideas of "politeness." For example, don't park in front of your neighbors house if there is room outside your own, ect.

For many adjusting to the new inflow, it's probably a matter of practice and expectation. If you haven't had cars parking outside your home and that changes, I would expect that to upset some people. In some ways, I think the neighborhood is handling it better than more suburban neighborhoods might. However, people are prone to push back on things they believe affect the perceived desirability of their property.

I think many welcome the revitalization of 23rd and other areas, but it has to be a partnership. I think Guyutes has been a great partner thus far, and I think the issues will be resolved. I think they know how to manage the situation. However, if a solution isn't arrived at, I'd expect stronger opposition to future projects--particularly from residents closest to the progress (21st and 22nd Streets).

To oppose future (quality) development, regardless of how it will affect the parking situation, is to oppose an increase in the value of your property. Obviously, if someone wants to bring a 3.2, dive beer bar with old carpet and worn out pool tables that are colored by smoke, that's something to oppose. If someone suggests a trio of upscale bars (wine, martini, whiskey) that are all connected and overtake the pawnshop and the empty lot there, opposing there is stupid. You're only enhancing the vitality of the area that you live in. You're improving your neighborhood.

Heritage Hills and Mesta Park and Gatewood people need to learn this. Your subdivision is not a neighborhood, and the value of your subdivision is only partially determined by the quality of your subdivision. It is far more determined by the quality of what neighborhood your subdivision ties into.

[Urbanized]

"Your subdivision is not a neighborhood.." Come again?

[MagzOK]

To oppose future (quality) development, regardless of how it will affect the parking situation, is to oppose an increase in the value of your property. Obviously, if someone wants to bring a 3.2, dive beer bar with old carpet and worn out pool tables that are colored by smoke, that's something to oppose. If someone suggests a trio of upscale bars (wine, martini, whiskey) that are all connected and overtake the pawnshop and the empty lot there, opposing there is stupid. You're only enhancing the vitality of the area that you live in. You're improving your neighborhood.

Heritage Hills and Mesta Park and Gatewood people need to learn this. Your subdivision is not a neighborhood, and the value of your subdivision is only partially determined by the quality of your subdivision. It is far more determined by the quality of what neighborhood your subdivision ties into.

Subdivision not a neighborhood? It's okay that some folks don't have the same revitalization views as others. But I think a neighborhood should be able to do whatever they want to do regardless of what others who don't live there think about 'greater good'. Maybe they don't mind the pawn shop and empty lot because these two entities don't bring bumper to bumper parking in all hours of the day and night which brings a plethora of other issues. I get irritated when a neighbor down the street here throws a party and there's bumper-to-bumber parking partially blocking my driveway, etc., then I get to clean up trash in my yard that those have parked there have haphazardly discarded. And that's once about every six months let alone every night.

[twade]

At the risk of hijacking a thread dedicated to a great new local spot, I think it's worth mounting a defense for Mesta Park and Heritage Hills.

Each has a lifespan lasting longer than the life of any member of this board. However, I feel that some acquate the age of the homes with the tastes and lifestyles of those who live in them. I think many would be surprised how young the neighborhoods have become. Also, like any neighborhood, there is a remarkable diversity of opinion within the neighborhoods. Different groups within the neighborhood support or oppose a project for a number of different reasons (none of that should be surprising to anyone).

At the risk of overgeneralizing, Mesta and Heritage Hills are now composed of the following groups:

1. Generational families who have owned in the neighborhood for decades (if not a century);
2. Lovers of historic homes who want to preserve some of the best remaining historic homes in the city;
3. Young professionals wanting to be closer to downtown and the increased development in the last few years;
4. Young families who want to take advantage of one of the best pubic elementary schools in the city (Wilson Elementary); and
5. Outside investors seeking to renovate and capitalize off of the skyrocketing property values in the neighborhood;

Everyone moves to the neighborhood for their own reasons, but most come in search of community. The Neighborhood Association is very active and it's common to see neighbors spending the evenings together on front porches throughout the neighborhood. You are free to see it your own way, but many see the "public" areas as an extension of their own home. For that reason, the neighborhood invests heavily in sidewalks, street lights, trees, ect. to add to the appeal and beauty of the neighborhood. The neighborhood is highly invested in those that wish to partner or come into the neighborhood.

As I've said throughout this thread, I think Guyutes is a great place and will be a great partner. I also cannot speak for every resident of either neighborhood. The only thing I can bring is my perspective. These two neighborhoods are not the cheapest places to live in the city, and as my mother used to say, these are "letter writing" people. They are connected, and they care about not just the neighborhood, but OKC in general. In some ways, it may explain why development in other areas (Film Row or the Plaza) generally see less opposition (though that is changing). In those areas, there are fewer landowners living in the area (I would guess).

While it's easy to generalize and say Mesta and HH want to hold back development, I think on the whole that is not the case. Many (if not all) want to see 23rd Street improve. It's just how it's done. Developers don't have an easy task--they have to navigate land use restrictions, parking or lack of parking, and interest from the neighborhood. It's no different from any other large city. When you cannot convert pasture land into a development, you will have challenges. Interest in the inner core is just highlighting issues for developers that are faced throughout the country. I actually find it encouraging that these issues are creeping up, because it means that people want to be here and developers think inner-OKC is worth the investment.

For those quick to attack the neighborhoods surrounding these new developments, my hope is this: when you leave a show at the Tower Theater next year and decide to take a late-night stroll through our tree-lined streets, look at the handsome historic homes, and receive a wave from a porch full of Mesta or Heritage Hills neighbors, you realize that the neighborhood is just trying to do what it thinks is right--for those who live here and those who visit.

[Urbanized]

For the record, some of Plaza and Uptown 23's most active supporters/developers/investors are residents of HH, Mesta and Gatewood. The developer group of the aforementioned Tower Theater includes Mesta/Gatewood residents in fact. It's not fair to paint them all with the same NIMBY brush.

And HH/Mesta/Gatewood absolutely ARE neighborhoods; in fact more so than almost any other areas in metro OKC. Was referring to them as subdivisions meant to equate them with crackerbox housing additions in the hinterlands? These neighborhoods began developing before the concept of a "subdivision" was even born.

[Teo9969]

For starters, it's axiomatic that not all people that live in any particularly defined area do not hold unilaterally similar opinions/beliefs/objections or whatever regarding any given matter, in this case, regarding land use. So I'm using no brush here to paint any all. Some people will hate what Guyute's brings, others will love it. I'm simply not going to take the time to clarify that. It's obvious.

I'm not going to quibble about definitions of district, neighborhood, subdivision, because that will take us way off topic. It was a poor attempt on my part to communicate my thoughts.

At any rate, whether or not the exact terminology of subdivision was finalized, the concept was certainly around as or before most of these neighborhoods developed (1910s-1920s). Functionally, what is defined as "MP" or "HH" it is no different than Rose Creek or whatever other subdivisions: Very nice homes that are located near existing/budding commercial areas, but whose streets are (very obviously in this conversation) being assumed to belong to the residents within that subdivision, and whose land-use is distinctly private. Contrast that where in a neighborhood, the residents and businesses of that neighborhood take care of streets that belong to the public in order to encourage people to come into that neighborhood to enhance their own quality of life and entice outsiders to come spend their money within the confines of their district to further increase their own quality of life.

So, 22nd/21s/et al., belong just as much to the businesses of 23rd as to the private residence owners of 22nd/21st/et al. because the businesses of 23rd bring far more value to the homes on 21st and 22nd than the homes bring to the businesses. Now, a quality business will certainly want to be a quality neighbor and make an effort to make their existence not only not a nuisance to the surrounding residents but indeed an improvement to the residents quality of life.

Sometimes there is trade off. As 23rd continues to add quality development, homes on 22nd and 21st et al. receive generous increases in property values. With that, comes more traffic, more responsibility to keep the neighborhood in shape, and more required investment to enhance sustainability of the neighborhood…Keeping in mind that in this case MP/HH includes NW 23rd street, and Gatewood includes 16th Street.

[Pete]

There are going to be on-going battles in every urban district as OKC continues to grow and do all types of in-fill.

There already are little fights just about everywhere. Lots of bad blood in SoSA right now in particular.

The people that were first in these neighborhoods feel protective of them and while that's generally a good thing and shows passion and ownership, it raises the question: Where do you draw the line in terms of development?

So many different opinions on architecture and heights and uses... The mere fact we have a lot of people living in these areas now means anything new is going to draw lots of opinions and generally a bunch not completely positive.

Apart from the constant rolling over on demolitions, I think our various approval committees have done a pretty good job of arbitrating. I also think the Planning Commission has reevaluated their role and seem to not be overstepping as much as they have in the past -- Guyutes being an extreme example of this.


It's kind of like what Urbanized said about parking problems: It's actually a great sign for a district. And I think that's the case with these squabbles. Some will carry hard feelings forward if they don't get their way but otherwise all this seems to be working itself out but it's going to be a continuous process because there is much, much more infill to come and many more people now living in these neighborhoods.

[Urbanized]

Sorry if I read it wrong Teo but I just felt "...Heritage Hills and Mesta Park and Gatewood people need to learn this. Your subdivision is not a neighborhood, and the value of your subdivision is only partially determined by the quality of your subdivision..." was lumping most if not all of those residents into the same pot. My bad if not.

[Teo9969]

Sorry if I read it wrong Teo but I just felt "...Heritage Hills and Mesta Park and Gatewood people need to learn this. Your subdivision is not a neighborhood, and the value of your subdivision is only partially determined by the quality of your subdivision..." was lumping most if not all of those residents into the same pot. My bad if not.

I should have said "…and Gatewood people *who are staunchly opposed to developments like the Tower theater, the new Ben Sellers project, Guyute's, etc.* need to learn this."

But again…that seems superfluous information to me because obviously the majority of HH/MP/Gatewood people are reasonable and understand everything that's at play here. And I'm not trying to minimize the concerns or desires of those who are legitimately opposed. If you want to live in a quiet neighborhood where the only people that park on your street are visitors to homes on that street, that's reasonable and fine. But NW 22nd anywhere east of Pennsylvania is not that street.

[Urban Pioneer]

Let's be honest, some of the ridiculous talking points used in HH and MP regarding The Edge helped directly cause association with the NIMBY acronym. Right or wrong, after that charade, its easy for some folks (including elected and appointed leaders) to write off criticism as elitism. Just say'in. I had to fight many of these same people over fears that people would park in HH and MP and use the streetcar to commute in.

They're public streets. If you want absolute control, go move to Oak Tree in far north Edmond.

You don't own the streets. We ALL own the streets.

[Uptowner]

It's kind of like what Urbanized said about parking problems: It's actually a great sign for a district. And I think that's the case with these squabbles. Some will carry hard feelings forward if they don't get their way but otherwise all this seems to be working itself out but it's going to be a continuous process because there is much, much more infill to come and many more people now living in these neighborhoods.

It feels like the ONLY case in these squabbles. That and the fact that they (you know who "they" are, I'm not lumping us all into one historic neighbor pot) want some sort of Orwellian utopia Town of Mayberry right in the core of the city where Andy Griffith protects them at night and only the neighbors get to use the public facilities.

I'd love to hear perspective from people who lived in the neighborhood in the 50's when the 23rd st corridor was Route 66, it hosted the area's main access to food, fuel, goods, services, and entertainment. We've all seen the photos. Probably the same, who cares? The simple fact is that you don't own the street or the easement, or the sidewalk. It belongs to the public. Either get used to it or get out. There's plenty of room in edmond, and plenty of people who WANT to live near the action and accept an environment like that and are willing to pay the ridiculous values. If you think it will devalue your property then hurry up! I wouldn't mind an upgrade. We can throw keg parties and my friends bands will play.

Like Pete said, and I'm paraphrasing: "you're not going to stop development." You're only delaying it, annoying people, and garnering resentment.

Back to Guyutes, it's awesome, the food is a bit too "dude we're so stoned what are we gonna make for diner? Pizza omelets!" But I like it, and the owners are nice guys. I'm super excited that they made it through all this BS. and their customers can come park in from on my house on the NORTH side of 23rd any time.

[LAJJ]

I went to Guyutes on Wednesday, and Friday night! The food was amazing... Patrick the Chef is doing a great job! Everyone I was with on both occasions said they loved the food. The atmosphere was great. Fun, lively, and welcoming. Our service was excellent as well. The people next to us had a young baby and they said were enjoying their time also. The rooftop patio was packed on both nights and crowd was having fun, eating, drinking and listening to music. I didn't have a problem with parking at all. I arrived around 6:30 to 7 p.m. on both nights and parked right on 23rd street. Several people in my group parked on 23rd and some parked in the back of the restaurant in the blood bank parking lot. We did not have a problem parking on either night. Both nights the downstairs area and the rooftop patio were busy and everyone we spoke with was having a great time. I know that many of us have been waiting for Guyutes to open and we were not disappointed. The entire staff was friendly and helpful. I loved that the check was brought to us in a book. This is a cool place and the look, atmosphere and vibe are just what OKC needs. So glad to have a new fun place to go with friends. Can't wait for them to extend their hours. They are currently open from 5 p.m. to 2 a.m., but our waiter said that within a few weeks they will go to 11 a.m. to 2 a.m.

[LAJJ]

I've been twice now and never had a problem parking. I parked on 23rd street both times.

Same here... Every time I go I park on N.W. 23rd street. I haven't had a problem with parking at all...

[LAJJ]

Parking shouldn't be a problem! There are several options open for people... 23rd Street, the blood bank, and the clinic across the street which Guyutes has secured for parking after 5 p.m.

[LAJJ]

When are they opening? I need to know so I can make sure to sell my Mesta Park home before this establishment single-handedly craters both property values and the overall quality of life of the entire neighborhood.

I mean, WHERE ARE THE PEOPLE GOING TO PARK!!!!!

I have parked on N.W. 23rd every time I have gone... Seriously? If you think this place will "single handedly crater both your property values and the overall quality of life of the entire neighborhood" you should probably go ahead and move now! I know a few realtors that you can contact...

[Pete]

I have parked on N.W. 23rd every time I have gone... Seriously? If you think this place will "single handedly crater both your property values and the overall quality of life of the entire neighborhood" you should probably go ahead and move now! I know a few realtors that you can contact...

LAJJ, the guy you quoted was being sarcastic.

[LAJJ]

LAJJ, the guy you quoted was being sarcastic.

That's good to know... I couldn't believe someone would actually think that...

[Pete]

He lives in Mesta Park and was mocking some of his neighbors who were making far too big a deal out of the impact on the neighborhood.

Sarcasm is hard to detect on the Internet!

[LAJJ]

He lives in Mesta Park and was mocking some of his neighbors who were making far too big a deal out of the impact on the neighborhood.

Sarcasm is hard to detect on the Internet!

Thanks for letting me know... You are correct, it is hard to read sarcasm on the web., I'm glad to know it was sarcasm. Pete, are you coming to OKC anytime soon. I would love to have a beer with you on Guyutes rooftop patio... I just left the place, and the they were rocking it on a Monday night. So glad to see so many people enjoying the great food, and the rooftop patio with such great weather for August in OKC. I just grabbed a beer and a pizza to go... It was awesome!

[Pete]

I will be there soon!

End of September.

Really looking forward to it.