University of Oklahoma SAE Fraternity Closed After Racist Video

[David]

To the surprise of few, the fraternity is not going away quietly.

OU SAE to sue university, possibly President Boren | KFOR.com

Wow, apparently they aren't done with the bad ideas. Having all possible dirty laundry dragged out into the light is not going to make them look less like racists.

[PhiAlpha]

Ive been too busy to post over the last few days but was planning to post responses to a few people and provide more details on this, but given the fact that this is no longer a done deal, I'm going to hold off until this played out. I will say that based on everything I've learned, there is a ton of information missing from what is being portrayed in the media. Again, I don't agree with what these guys did, as it is not something that we even thought about while I was there and was obviously wrong, but they do have a case as does the fraternity if they choose to pursue it. ThisIs not just a last resort shot in the dark, they've been advised by many different legal groups. While people keep bringing up all of SAE's dirty laundry that could be aired, the laudry that would cause by far the most outrage is already out there and it wasn't near as widespread within the house as it is being portrayed. Also from what I've been told there is plenty of dirty laudry to go around from Boren down to the football team who is pushing a lot of this. There are some other major factors involved that could make this pretty ugly for everyone. This will be a mess if it makes it to court. That's all I can say for now, I'm going to take a leave of absence from this thread until it's settled.

[hoya]

I trust all will remember that Jones defended Timothy McVeigh some 20 years ago.

Meanwhile, this popped up this morning: Another SAE frat chapter accused of slurs | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com

Tipping point, anyone?

Yeah, I think this is more an SAE thing than an OU thing.

Each fraternity and sorority has its own reputation. You had the fat sorority, the slutty sorority, the jock fraternity, the rich guy fraternity, etc. That reputation can change over time, depending on how the house membership changes. Guys graduate, new pledges come in, the personality of the house changes. When I was at OU, it was the KAs and not the SAEs who had the reputation for being the Confederate flag-waving racists. The reputation varies from house to house and from university to university. The "fat sorority" on one campus can be the "hot rich girl sorority" on another. It just depends.

[David]

Ive been too busy to post over the last few days but was planning to post responses to a few people and provide more details on this, but given the fact that this is no longer a done deal, I'm going to hold off until this played out. I will say that based on everything I've learned, there is a ton of information missing from what is being portrayed in the media. Again, I don't agree with what these guys did, as it is not something that we even thought about while I was there and was obviously wrong, but they do have a case as does the fraternity if they choose to pursue it. ThisIs not just a last resort shot in the dark, they've been advised by many different legal groups. While people keep bringing up all of SAE's dirty laundry that could be aired, the laudry that would cause by far the most outrage is already out there and it wasn't near as widespread within the house as it is being portrayed. Also from what I've been told there is plenty of dirty laudry to go around from Boren down to the football team who is pushing a lot of this. There are some other major factors involved that could make this pretty ugly for everyone. This will be a mess if it makes it to court. That's all I can say for now, I'm going to take a leave of absence from this thread until it's settled.

There's still the question of how those boys knew the song, and where else could they have learned it other than from inside the house from other members? How could full details on that cause less outrage than them singing the song itself?

[hoya]

There's still the question of how those boys knew the song, and where else could they have learned it other than from inside the house from other members? How could full details on that cause less outrage than them singing the song itself?

The rumor is that some variant of the song has been sung at other fraternities. Maybe they Googled "douchey frat songs".

[PhiAlpha]

There's still the question of how those boys knew the song, and where else could they have learned it other than from inside the house from other members? How could full details on that cause less outrage than them singing the song itself?

I know all the details on it but can not discuss right now.

[PixAre]

Seems to me this will have more long-standing implications in terms of reputation damage on the University than it will on the Fraternity. How many minority students are changing their minds against attending the University because of this incident? How many professors may leave? How many donations or research dollars could they stand to lose, or grant monies where equality criteria are considered? We know about the recruit issue, which football aside, is what it is, but the damage could be far greater.

As much as SAE's reputation has been sullied (and really, given ongoing anecdotal evidence, these types of things are not isolated to one chapter), the damage to the University may be greater. If someone is going to sue, why not the fraternity sue the two kids for institutional damage? Why not go after the person who leaked the video for same (surely they can figure out who it was based upon where he or she was sitting).

While I don't disagree there aren't grounds for a lawsuit, the fact that SAE also has chosen Stephen Jones to represent them speaks volumes as well, and not in a good way, IMO.

When I was in school, SAE was booted off of campus for a hazing incident. They survived and came back. No doubt, they will find a way back again, and hopefully, after the national organization has taken a strong and serious look at individual chapters across the country where other incidents have occurred.

[jerrywall]

One thing this whole situation keeps bringing to mind, is how many other orgs/clubs (non-campus/fraternity) have songs and chants that if filmed and put online, would cause similar reactions. A lot of the rugby songs I know are pretty offensive (and a few that could be considered racist). There's a large crossover of those songs into some running clubs, and I also know running clubs which give all their established members nicknames that can be pretty offensive at times. It's sort of that larger concept of basement songs, where people are singing stuff they don't really mean but could, as we've seen, have serious repercussions if video or audio of it got out. So when we're talking about tipping points, this could be another one, where all these cultures start to change and evolve a bit.

[Pete]

One thing this whole situation keeps bringing to mind, is how many other orgs/clubs (non-campus/fraternity) have songs and chants that if filmed and put online, would cause similar reactions. A lot of the rugby songs I know are pretty offensive (and a few that could be considered racist). There's a large crossover of those songs into some running clubs, and I also know running clubs which give all their established members nicknames that can be pretty offensive at times. It's sort of that larger concept of basement songs, where people are singing stuff they don't really mean but could, as we've seen, have serious repercussions if video or audio of it got out. So when we're talking about tipping points, this could be another one, where all these cultures start to change and evolve a bit.

Very good points. This certainly extends past the fraternity system and even college organizations.

That's why this issue coming to light and the grave consequences to those involved is so important.

Long before now, someone at the SAE house should have said, "We aren't doing this anymore." Even if that wasn't based on morality, the actual risk to individuals and the organization should be plenty of motivation.

I suspect a lot of fraternities, sports clubs and fraternal organizations have been having hushed conversations about how they need to completely drop some of their 'traditions'.

Perhaps, that's the best possible thing to come out of this whole mess.

[Jim Kyle]

I suspect a lot of fraternities, sports clubs and fraternal organizations have been having hushed conversations about how they need to completely drop some of their 'traditions'.

Perhaps, that's the best possible thing to come out of this whole mess.

And that's why I like to hope that this proves to be a tipping point toward the underlying problem's eventual solution. Great journeys begin with a single step, and the more groups taking that step, the better.

[Martin]

ACLU of Oklahoma Statement in Response to the University of Oklahoma?s Announcement of VP of Diversity Position | American Civil Liberties Union of Oklahoma

As a state-run institution of higher education, the University of Oklahoma must also respect First Amendment principles that are central to the mission of every university. Any sanction imposed on students for their speech must therefore be consistent with the First Amendment and not merely a punishment for vile and reprehensible speech; courts have consistently and rightly ruled as such. Absent information that is not at our disposal, it is difficult to imagine a situation in which a court would side with the university on this matter. We are closely monitoring the situation and will appropriately respond to new details as they emerge. In the meantime, we stand in solid support of the brave and thoughtful students whose public dialogue on race and the rights of all minority students in response to the incident have embodied the spirit of the First Amendment.

[Pete]

Until now, all these songs and chants and jokes were easily rationalized by asserting they are all just fun and games; just harmless words and nobody really believes in the underlying message.

You can still try and make that excuse, but at the same time you know it isn't going to fly when someone outside your inner circle gets wind of it.

The consequences are now very clear and fear is a great motivator, even when your own conscience fails you.

[onthestrip]

Should Joe Mixon be dragged into frat video mess? | News OK

So is Berry saying that you only properly punish people if it gets widespread coverage and damages the brand? So the two SAE's wouldnt be expelled if this video was from a pizza restaurant's security cameras and wasnt released to the world? Or Joe Mixon would be expelled if his video did go viral?

[jerrywall]

So the two SAE's wouldnt be expelled if this video was from a pizza restaurant's security cameras and wasnt released to the world? Or Joe Mixon would be expelled if his video did go viral?

Oh, absolutely. The reaction from Boren and the national SAE org would have been very different if this hadn't hit so big and visible.

[Swake]

So the frat in the racist video that has gone around the world giving both OU and Oklahoma a very ugly black eye wants to sue using Timothy McVeigh’s lawyer. Tim McVeigh who had ties to the Christian Identity and White Power movements and leveled the federal building in Oklahoma City killing as many people as he could including infants.

This frat got away with just having to move and having the two members in video leading the incredibly racist chant expelled when there were dozens of participants on the bus that now will all be deposed and exposed. These frat bros are now going to ensure that all their names are out publically forever tied to this video and are going to have answer questions under oath, under threat of criminal perjury about what behavior they did or did not participate in including hazing, underage drinking, and of course racist behavior. Not to mention criminally providing liquor to underage drinkers, you know, the drunk freshman on the bus that were expelled.

You just can’t make this crap up, it’s too out there. Timothy McVeigh’s lawyer on top of it all. Really?

I think I will take MORONS for $1000 Alex.

[Pete]

Steve Jones is probably one of the few lawyers that would touch this case.

The officers and board members of the OU SAE chapter are smart to get some sort of legal help, though.

As the heat gets turned up to find out where this song came from and how it was spread throughout that house, they all face the possibility of tough consequences with a financial component. Officers and directors have a direct and indisputable responsibility for the entire organization, after all.

I served on the alumni board for the DU house in the 80's and let's just say I had some sleepless nights as a young professional with far more to lose than the college kids that I knew to be doing all types of crazy stuff. All that 'good college fun' looks a lot different as an adult operating in the business world.

[PhiAlpha]

So is Berry saying that you only properly punish people if it gets widespread coverage and damages the brand? So the two SAE's wouldnt be expelled if this video was from a pizza restaurant's security cameras and wasnt released to the world? Or Joe Mixon would be expelled if his video did go viral?

Breaking my code of silence but this is one of my biggest issues with the hypocrisy in Boren's response to each of these. I could type out how I feel about it but these articles sum it up pretty well. Both bad situations but if violent criminal actions+hurtful speech (a gay slur that instigated the conflict) in Mixon's case doesn't warrant expulsion and allows a second chance, why should hurtful speech alone warrant expulsion with no due process and second chance? It's a dangerous double standard and it's equally dangerous to punish based on public reaction over the severity of the actual offense.


Oklahoma Stands Tall Against Racism, Weak Against Violence | FOX Sports


University of Oklahoma President Calls Outkick Article | FOX Sports


First Amendment Withers As Social Media Mobs Take Flight | FOX Sports

[Video Expert]

... and it wasn't near as widespread within the house as it is being portrayed.

And that may very well may be true. If that's indeed the case, they should proceed with their suit in order to try and get it out in the open. Personally, I find it quite concerning that all 150+ members of the organization have now been publicly labeled as "racists" over the despicable actions of what we only know at this time to be a few students on that bus.

[Pete]

Was listening to the Jones presser and he said he is not repping the two main guys involved but did say they had withdrawn from OU before being 'expelled'.

Said his clients are seeking a non-adversarial solution on several issues, including the SAE house.

[Swake]

Breaking my code of silence but this is one of my biggest issues with the hypocrisy in Boren's response to each of these. I could type out how I feel about it but these articles sum it up pretty well. Both bad situations but if violent criminal actions+hurtful speech (a gay slur that instigated the conflict) in Mixon's case doesn't warrant expulsion and allows a second chance, why should hurtful speech alone warrant expulsion with no due process and second chance? It's a dangerous double standard and it's equally dangerous to punish based on public reaction over the severity of the actual offense.


Oklahoma Stands Tall Against Racism, Weak Against Violence | FOX Sports


University of Oklahoma President Calls Outkick Article | FOX Sports


First Amendment Withers As Social Media Mobs Take Flight | FOX Sports

If you have influence, you need to talk to these punks.

There is a difference between what happened between individuals and the conduct of school organizations on official outings.

First off, what is the upside for SAE here? The charter was pulled by Nationals before the school did it, there’s no going back.

Here’s the downside. Boren wants these guys gone, he’s very upset and is going to pull no punches. They just gave him the chance.

Every member is going to deposed, under oath and you know that OU lawyer are going to be looking for illegal behavior in the frat and will have a long list of questions pulled right from the student code of conduct just looking for reasons to expel each of them. What criminal behavior is uncovered, assault, underage drinking, providing alcohol, any sex related issues will be quickly forwarded to the Cleveland County DA.

And then there is the counter suit. Members of the frat at an official event have done immesuarble harm to the university. OU is going to counter sue SAE’s asses off with a much better argument than “but, but, you were more harsh on us than those black football players”

Morons isn’t actually strong enough. But then they were stupid enough to have racist cheers videotaped in the 21st century.

[Swake]

Was listening to the Jones presser and he said he is not repping the two main guys involved but did say they had withdrawn from OU before being 'expelled'.

Said his clients are seeking a non-adversarial solution on several issues, including the SAE house.

Why would OU agree to that? That's stupid.

[PhiAlpha]

If you have influence, you need to talk to these punks.

There is a difference between what happened between individuals and the conduct of school organizations on official outings.

First off, what is the upside for SAE here? The charter was pulled by Nationals before the school did it, there’s no going back.

Here’s the downside. Boren wants these guys gone, he’s very upset and is going to pull no punches. They just gave him the chance.

Every member is going to deposed, under oath and you know that OU lawyer are going to be looking for illegal behavior in the frat and will have a long list of questions pulled right from the student code of conduct just looking for reasons to expel each of them. What criminal behavior is uncovered, assault, underage drinking, providing alcohol, any sex related issues will be quickly forwarded to the Cleveland County DA.

And then there is the counter suit. Members of the frat at an official event have done immesuarble harm to the university. OU is going to counter sue SAE’s asses off with a much better argument than “but, but, you were more harsh on us than those black football players”

Morons isn’t actually strong enough. But then they were stupid enough to have racist cheers videotaped in the 21st century.

The bolded text is no longer entirely correct.

the group in charge of this are not a bunch of idiots and they as well as I have much more knowledge about the situation than you do. They wouldn't haul off and do this for the hell of it, it has been well thought out. They may not be successful but the positives far outweigh the negatives.

Your posts are way too extreme, insulting, and take too much of a condescending tone for them to be worthy of my responses any more. I've had to deal with enough over the last week and am not going to sit here and deal with some anonymous poster talking to me like I'm an idiot. Im out, you guys enjoy and continue the debate.

[borchard]

OK, I've read alot of this. And I've seen the news about what the SAE idiots did. Maybe it's just me, but shouldn't there be a longer, more thorough, body-cavity-search-quality look given to the ENTIRE Greek system? When I was at OU in the 80's, here's what I observed about the Greek system:
White fraternities/sororities excluded blacks
Black fraternities/sororities excluded whites
Rich white kids excluded poor white kids
Pretty white girls excluded ugly white girls

The whole system seems built on one thing, and one thing only; exclusion
Has the Greek system's time come and gone?

Maybe I'm wrong

[Swake]

The bolded text is no longer entirely correct.

Even if true, that doesn't change the huge downside from going after OU. And OU can't back down, the public relations hit would be huge. They can't win.

[Pete]

From a practical standpoint, there is no way the SAE's return to OU for at least decades and probably ever.

Fair or not, that's the reality.

This isn't like the late 80's where the house just stayed closed for several years and then later reopened, so something is going to have to be done with that property.