Oklahoma liquor laws

[Urbanized]

I was first introduced to Shiner 20+ years ago when spending a lot of time in Austin. You often literally saw nothing else being consumed by others when in a bar or restaurant. When it made it to the OKC market, Shiner was about all I would drink for a while. But these days when I'm out of options at a place with a bad beer list and order Shiner in a pinch I always regret it. The stuff is swill these days. It's probably because what you are getting around here is usually the watered-down 3.2 version, but either way it ain't the same great stuff it used to be.

[bchris02]

I was first introduced to Shiner 20+ years ago when spending a lot of time in Austin. You often literally saw nothing else being consumed by others when in a bar or restaurant. When it made it to the OKC market, Shiner was about all I would drink for a while. But these days when I'm out of options at a place with a bad beer list and order Shiner in a pinch I always regret it. The stuff is swill these days. It's probably because what you are getting around here is usually the watered-down 3.2 version, but either way it ain't the same great stuff it used to be.

Real shiner is decent, but the 3.2 version is awful and that's what most places here serve.

[bradh]

Real shiner is decent, but the 3.2 version is awful and that's what most places here serve.

Yeah and that's a shame. I grew up on Shiner Bock. The warm stuff in the liqour stores aren't 3.2 also are they?

[Urbanized]

Warm stuff in the liquor stores is strong beer. I'm pretty sure that almost any time you get it at a bar or restaurant here these days it's the 3.2 version, because it masquerades as a premium for the (internal) cost of near beer.

[bchris02]

Yeah and that's a shame. I grew up on Shiner Bock. The warm stuff in the liqour stores aren't 3.2 also are they?

No they sell the real thing. However, most restaurants that serve Shiner however serve the 3.2 version. Not sure why that is if they have a real liquor license. For me, its the same with Blue Moon. I used to love that beer, but most bars/restaurants here will serve the 3.2 version which tastes so watery its almost undrinkable.

[Urbanized]

...Not sure why that is if they have a real liquor license...

$$$$$$$

You can start with the fact that strong beer is subject to 13% liquor tax, and 3.2 is not.

[bchris02]

$$$$$$$

You can start with the fact that strong beer is subject to 13% liquor tax, and 3.2 is not.

Doesn't 3.2 beer also count as food in terms of the 50% food requirement for an ABC-2 license?

[Urbanized]

I'm not sure on that. I've heard people say it, but that whole 50/50 thing seems so wishy-washy and loosely enforced that who knows..?

[bille]

Actually Native Amber was specifically brewed from the start to be a substitute for those who loved Fat Tire but couldn't get it here. Except that it was modeled after the earlier, fresher version of FT. Trust me on this; it's fact. But you are correct that it is much better.

That is interesting! I've never heard that before. I'd have given them a good ribbing for missing the mark on that one (in a good way) had I known. I love Native Amber; buy it all the time but imo the beers aren't really that close in flavor. That said if you are a fan of Fat Tire and its signature heavy biscuit malt character you should try McNellie's Pub Ale by Marshalls. If memory serves that beer is also heavy on biscuit malt and has a pretty similar flavor. Not to mention it's local and should be easy to find.

No they sell the real thing. However, most restaurants that serve Shiner however serve the 3.2 version. Not sure why that is if they have a real liquor license. For me, its the same with Blue Moon. I used to love that beer, but most bars/restaurants here will serve the 3.2 version which tastes so watery its almost undrinkable.

Not for nothing but the "real" Shiner Bock you guys are speaking of is 4.4% ABV, what you see in convenience stores (and most likely on tap) is the low point version, which is 4.0%. fwiw .4% isn't that much of difference and most people have a hard enough time discerning a full point. Perhaps the taste difference you are noticing is more a draft versus bottle or even a temperature variance.

As for the reason why they'd opt to carry the lower point version is simple, taxes (being much lower on "low point" beer). That, overall profit and again the fact that the full strength version is only marginally stronger, which to me was actually surprising but then again I've never drunk enough of it to question it nor have I ever done a side by side comparison.

[Urbanized]

I'm not saying it was to be a copy; just very much in that wheelhouse.

[bradh]

I don't care about the alcohol content between the two Shiners, it's the flavor. When you grew up on the "real" stuff, you can sniff out the OK version quickly.

[Urbanized]

That's my chief complaint with all 3.2 beers. I'm not above enjoying a crisp lager or pilsner on a hot day, but the 3.2 varieties just taste like LITERALLY watered-down versions of the original. It's not about getting effed up, it's about flavor.

[bchris02]

That's my chief complaint with all 3.2 beers. I'm not above enjoying a crisp lager or pilsner on a hot day, but the 3.2 varieties just taste like LITERALLY watered-down versions of the original. It's not about getting effed up, it's about flavor.

I agree. Thats what gets left out of this discussion too many times by people who just want to get drunk faster or conservatives who support existing laws with the intention of encouraging sobriety. The taste difference is far greater than the alcohol content difference. That's why I really like COOP's new 3.2 brews. It tastes and feels like I am drinking real beer and they aren't bad beers in their own right.

[Urbanized]

That's probably just the difference between a craft brewer taking it as a challenge to brew a great-tasting beer that fits the 3.2 restriction versus a mega-brewer dumbing down their existing brand to comply with the law. Not to mention the fact that a lot of mainstream big-money brews by design have less flavor, even less than their original formulas. If you haven't watched "Beer Wars" I'd recommend it; the documentary details how large corporate brewers have intentionally removed flavor from their beers over the decades to comply with the American palate's lowest-common-denominator. Lowest-common-denominator = most possible sales.

Oklahoma is one of the rare places where a brewer would invest in a flavor purposely formulated to taste good at 3.2. I'm glad COOP created new flavors from scratch instead of adapting existing ones, and hope other Oklahoma brands do the same.

[bluedogok]

We all know how government policy moves at a glacial pace. Even with the boom in craft brewing here in Colorado and a governor who was part of that growth (Wynkoop Brewing) it seems every legislative session there is always some tweaking of the alcohol laws. Reasonable laws always seem to lag behind the real world wishes even when an overwhelming majority of the politicians and public.

[bradh]

Mmmmm Wynkoop's Mac and cheese....nom nom

[Urbanized]

Stephanie Bice did a great job this morning talking on News 9 about the refrigeration issue and explained how to some extent it is the low-hanging-fruit of liquor law modernization in that it can be done in the legislature, whereas most of the more archaic liquor laws in Oklahoma are constitutional and would require referendums.

She said the main opponent to her proposed changes - which would allow refrigeration in liquor stores - is grocery and convenience stores. They are fighting it because they currently have a competitive advantage with having refrigeration while liquor stores don't, and feel the advantage would shift to liquor stores who would then be able to sell refrigerated strong beer while groceries were stuck with 3.2. So it really has little to do with religious opposition.

These are all things we have discussed here before, but it was interesting to hear it from a lawmaker's perspective.

[bradh]

Why again can't c-stores and grocery not just start selling the high point beer? That doesn't make sense.

[Urbanized]

It's against the law for them to do so. They don't have (nor can the get) state liquor licenses. They have LOCAL 3.2 off-premises consumption sales licenses, and are regulated exclusively at the city/county level throughout the state. ABLE, the state agency that regulates alcohol, does not concern itself with 3.2, as that is deemed non-intoxicating by state law. It's all very convoluted.

But my takeaway from Stephanie Bice's interview is that grocery/c-store sales is one of those things that would have to be changed via constitutional amendment, which would require a public referendum.

[betts]

Stephanie Bice did a great job this morning talking on News 9 about the refrigeration issue and explained how to some extent it is the low-hanging-fruit of liquor law modernization in that it can be done in the legislature, whereas most of the more archaic liquor laws in Oklahoma are constitutional and would require referendums.

She said the main opponent to her proposed changes - which would allow refrigeration in liquor stores - is grocery and convenience stores. They are fighting it because they currently have a competitive advantage with having refrigeration while liquor stores don't, and feel the advantage would shift to liquor stores who would then be able to sell refrigerated strong beer while groceries were stuck with 3.2. So it really has little to do with religious opposition.

These are all things we have discussed here before, but it was interesting to hear it from a lawmaker's perspective.

A fair trade off would be to allow grocery stores to sell wine. If that requires a referendum, so be it. Let's vote and see what people want.

[bille]

Bill 424 would also require a constitutional change.

Another bill has come to light, this one has an opposite effect of what we want and stems basically from what you all are discussing (low point beer). Breweries have recently started trying to play their edge by brewing good low point beers. COOP isn't the first by any means. Currently breweries are able to sell the beers direct at their breweries (or at special events) and even offer growler fills of these low point beers. They have become quite popular and as time passes more OK breweries are jumping on board with at least one or two offerings. So popular in fact that HB1858 proposes quadrupling the tax on low point beer. Make sure your people know that supporting that bill is a big NO!

[Urbanized]

I never suggested COOP was the first to purpose-brew low-point beers - in fact Oklahoma brewpubs have been doing so for more than 20 years - but I'm pretty certain they are the first to can them in state to market at grocery and convenience stores. They have actually been brewing low-point for several years now, for use at events such as H&8th and Live on the Plaza.

[Laramie]

It's obvious that many of us want to see reform in this whole area of state alcohol laws take place. Maybe the major metropolitan areas need to seek to separate themselves from the state agenda. One size doesn't fit all...

You know as well as I that Mother Hen will sit on those eggs and think: "if the eggs aren't broken, they will eventually hatch." That's great thinking; however when you're sitting on unfertilized eggs, it is a matter of time before something will be rotten in Denmark.

[jerrywall]

I never suggested COOP was the first to purpose-brew low-point beers - in fact Oklahoma brewpubs have been doing so for more than 20 years - but I'm pretty certain they are the first to can them in state to market at grocery and convenience stores.

I seem to recall Bricktown Brewery selling beers in grocery stores in the 90's. Of course, they're a different animal than COOP and company.

[bille]

I never suggested COOP was the first to purpose-brew low-point beers - in fact Oklahoma brewpubs have been doing so for more than 20 years - but I'm pretty certain they are the first to can them in state to market at grocery and convenience stores. They have actually been brewing low-point for several years now, for use at events such as H&8th and Live on the Plaza.

Actually, in recent years anyway, the first to do this was Mustang. They had two beers at one point but just as things were getting going they had to deal with other issues, mainly the tornado wiping out their newly purchased OK facility. Although they weren't brewing/packaging these low point options at that facility at the time that issue became front/center and was a huge roadblock moving forward with anything. I'm unsure if their intention is to bring these low point packages back or not, my guess is it'll depend on the outcome of these recently proposed bills.

I seem to recall Bricktown Brewery selling beers in grocery stores in the 90's. Of course, they're a different animal than COOP and company.

I remember it. Copperhead Amber Ale (now 46 star amber) was brewed/packaged for a minute by a Kansas brewery, I can't recall if they tweaked the abv of the recipe or if it mirrored the draft version they offered at the brewery however.