Streetcar

[soonerguru]

Oklahoma City Streetcar: Prepare for a Battle | OKC Central

Recent addition made by Steve to the end of this article:
UPDATE: Ed Shadid insists he’s not against the concept of a streetcar system, but opposes how it’s being done. “This streetcar, this process, this route,” he says of his concern. He also he says he has no interest in diverting the tax to other projects. Before making any change, he says, it should be taken back to a vote of the people. He notes there was no vote of the people for a streetcar or any other project – that the ballot was an effort to get around laws prohibiting log-rolling of projects.

Well I guess he's figured out screwing with the streetcar is not good for him politically. He's always complaining about process. How about he tee up a route idea and get involved instead of throwing stones at the volunteer citizens who have worked so hard on this process? That would require leadership. Ed, step up and lead and quit throwing stones.

[soonerguru]

Oklahoma City Streetcar: Prepare for a Battle | OKC Central

Recent addition made by Steve to the end of this article:
UPDATE: Ed Shadid insists he’s not against the concept of a streetcar system, but opposes how it’s being done. “This streetcar, this process, this route,” he says of his concern. He also he says he has no interest in diverting the tax to other projects. Before making any change, he says, it should be taken back to a vote of the people. He notes there was no vote of the people for a streetcar or any other project – that the ballot was an effort to get around laws prohibiting log-rolling of projects.

I just read this again and this is standard anti-MAPS boilerplate. Reminds me of the "Not THIS MAPS" crowd. And his quote is priceless: "this streetcar, this process, this route." What a loony thing to say. Seriously. If he's not against the "concept" of a streetcar why is he against this streetcar? The routes haven't even been agreed upon and he acts like he has no input? HE'S A COUNCILMAN! Geez. The next time Shadid does anything constructive will be his first.

[soonerguru]

I love AA, but I don't see it as being a viable reason to go east. That's my biggest issue with it. In order to serve it you really need to force the whole corridor east towards 235, which is my least favorite N/S corridor concept. Which means you need to do a couple things which past proposals have already done. You need to zag the line back west to get into denser and more active (future active too) areas or you lean towards a couplet so you can run at least one direction on Robinson, trying to capture a little more of MidTown.

The comment has been made by several people already. If we try to serve everyone, we will end up serving no one very well. If I had to leave a district out, I'd leave out AA. To me, it is the least likely to add evening and weekend activity. It is the least likely to add a significant amount of residents over the coming decade.

After seeing Jacob's suggestions, it is clear to me we are simply trying to touch too many districts. Too many places we all love. I pick AA for missing Phase I. A streetcar bridge on 10th and you could do a HSC/Capitol line that comes back in down 10th and then down Broadway as a connection as a later project. Not ideal but it would serve a couple dangling districts that we all agree eventually need service.

I fall on the side of the discussion that says we should focus more on initial ridership and transit integration (using existing bus riders and converting them) rather than focusing too much on TOD early on. TOD will come if we build a successful system. And we will have a much better grasp on where it will come and what it will look like as well in the future. For now, we need a solid win. Something people can use day, evening, and weekend. Lots of people.

I respect your opinion, but Automobile Alley to me is the most natural streetcar corridor we have in downtown OKC. I still think we'll see housing there down the road and I think it has viability as a retail and even better restaurant corridor than it is today. Don't forget also the new art museum that will be built there. I think as dense as it is, it still has room for growth.

[betts]

Wasted in the sense that I expected more regions to be covered.

OUHSC and deep deuce seem to be left out for no good reason IMO.

Deep Deuce will be fine if there's a line on Broadway and one in Bricktown as no one is then more than a couple of blocks from a line. Most of us living there are walkers and consider a couple block walk an easy stroll. Please see my earlier post for reasons why the HSC is less important than some other areas. Had we gotten federal funding we would have gone to the HSC almost assuredly, but it's not a great stand-alone route. Were there commuter rail tying in to the streetcar, going to the HSC would be far more viable. Both are hopefully in future plans.

All things being equal, I'd love to see the streetcar on both Broadway and Hudson/Walker. There are great things going on on both streets and both still show a lot of potential. I think, however, that a giant loop is not user friendly enough to warrant a loop and we don't have enough money to double track both. I really, really wish the Cox super block weren't there, as I think Broadway wins out a bit over Hudson/Walker.

I agree with whomever said we need to emphasize people over TOD (Sid?). The streetcar is a MAPS projects and they are designed for the people. We've never thought about economic development with our earlier MAPS projects, that I remember, we designed them to serve our citizens. Improving quality of life and offering amenities created development that we never anticipated, but it wasn't the driving force behind MAPS. I think we need to continue to think of the streetcar as primarily a people server and the development will follow as a result.

[Snowman]

I respect your opinion, but Automobile Alley to me is the most natural streetcar corridor we have in downtown OKC. I still think we'll see housing there down the road and I think it has viability as a retail and even better restaurant corridor than it is today. Don't forget also the new art museum that will be built there. I think as dense as it is, it still has room for growth.

If it was not for the Cox center (and if you try running it north on Broadway like the consultant did the way it merges with EK Gaylord) I might agree with you, but trying to use Broadway complicate it some.

Since I am now remembering some statments like that utilities were starting to kind of be planned on Robinson and Broadway the way the locally developed plan that might have been worked on in p180, an alternative I would like to see analyzed is keep it mostly the same as the Locally developed plan but instead of turning onto EK Gaylord it stay on Reno into Bricktown and then turn north on Walnut.

There would be less duplication of service that way, the hub is still in walking distance and it gets some stops deeper into Bricktown.

[Midtowner]

The farther north the thing gets, the better it'll connect with Heritage Hills (and my office). The first proposal seems decent. I could ride the circulator to the courthouse. That'd be great.

[CaptDave]

Of the four options presented at yesterday's subcommittee meeting, I think the Zeta and Reverse LPA are best for our starter streetcar system. These two designs are effective circulator systems that will be the base for an expanded system to serve the other areas mentioned in other posts. The other two options seem to be "trying too hard" to please everyone but sacrifice operational simplicity for riders. I like that Zeta penetrates farther west into the CBD without sacrificing mobility in the east along Automobile Alley. The reverse LPA is nice primarily due to the simplicity of the route. I know some people dislike the Zeta/Crazy 8 design but for me personally, it isn't an issue because whenever I use transit I look at my current location and my destination and don't care what the route looks like generally speaking as long as the time to get there is reasonable. The travel time difference between Zeta and Reverse LPA is small and not a large factor to most riders - I think.

Once the base, circulator system is in place, then I agree it is preferable to use configurations like Sid offered to reach destination farther from the downtown core. I envision lines to Uptown 23rd, OUHSC/Capitol, Farmer's Market/Stockyards, Classen/OKCU, Adventure District(?), and Capitol Hill being logical expansions after Phase II. These locations farther removed from the downtown circulator make more direct routing preferable.

My primary concern was mentioned by one of the committee members. None of the routes make any effort to incorporate the Santa Fe intermodal hub very effectively. The streetcar needs to stop "at the front door" of the hub. This would likely mean reducing EK Gaylord/Shields to four lanes of automobile traffic and then building a double track streetcar "station" in front of the Santa Fe depot. The figure 8 configuration should be not an issue and in the Zeta plan could be one of our systems characteristics it becomes known for. (As usual in OKC, Public Works' wailing and gnashing of teeth whenever anyone suggests reducing motor vehicle traffic lanes will be the primary obstacle to making the intermodal hub as effective as possible. This is why the Project 180 work on EK Gaylord needs to be delayed until the streetcar plan is approved.)

I also think the Midtown "loop" is by far the best solution. The development on 13th Street needs to be served by the streetcar and it may even encourage ridership from Mesta Park and Heritage Hills residents (although this isn't the primary reason). The roundabout at 10th and Walker is problematic but the engineering group certainly has the expertise to find a solution. (Maybe move the route to 11th instead of 10th with its high volume of emergency traffic going to St Anthony?) Unfortunately this is the most expensive option and I can see it being reduced to the tail track design for cost reasons.

To answer the questions posed to the committee members by the Jacobs group:
1) Not important to reach Central Park in Streetcar Phase I. The Core to Shore/Central Park loop is the obvious choice for Phase II however.

2) Very important to be on Automobile Alley. This is our most likely retail, commercial, residential corridor that is ready for further development now. TOD along AA will immediately connect to existing development and build on momentum built through years of effort and investment.

3) Somewhat important to go to bus tranfer center but only if the center is 100% going to be located there long term. If the bus transfer center is likely to be shifted to the intermodal hub, then the benefits of the streetcar going to that location are reduced depending on what may be developed on that site instead of the transfer center.

I understand there are likely to be choices made due to cost restraints - but there is $30million in MAPS3 "contingency" funds available. It would be an excellent use of a portion of those funds if it is "only" a few million dollars that would be needed to build the best streetcar system possible with fewer compromises due to cost restraints. (Heresy to the Convention Center people, but the streetcar is my personal favorite of all the MAPS3 projects.)

Another issue I keep hearing is the "requirement" to have wireless capability. WHY? Overhead catenary wires are present in some of the most beautiful cities on the planet and are not an eyesore. With the Project 180 template, I am 100% certain the wires can be nicely integrated into the streetscape. I wonder how much could be saved per vehicle if we decided right now to use the proven, conventional system and how much additional trackage that might yield.

Overall, my preference is Zeta with the changes I outlined at the Santa Fe station and Midtown. The Reverse LPA would be nearly as good however and in some respects better. This is my best case scenario preference that does not factor in cost and infrastructure/utility challenges. I think everyone interested in dragging OKC's transit system into this century owe all the subcommittee members a great debt. I know some of them have made significant personal investments in educating themselves and have invested incalculable hours into making this streetcar system the best it can be. They will have some difficult choices before making a recommendation to the MAPS3 Advisory Board, and in turn city council.

[warreng88]

Oklahoma City Streetcar: Prepare for a Battle | OKC Central

Recent addition made by Steve to the end of this article:
UPDATE: Ed Shadid insists he’s not against the concept of a streetcar system, but opposes how it’s being done. “This streetcar, this process, this route,” he says of his concern. He also he says he has no interest in diverting the tax to other projects. Before making any change, he says, it should be taken back to a vote of the people. He notes there was no vote of the people for a streetcar or any other project – that the ballot was an effort to get around laws prohibiting log-rolling of projects.

My biggest issue with this is why is he saying it need to go back to a vote of the people when he is not pushing for any of the other projects to go to a vote of the people? Why not send the Convention center back to a vote to build a new convention center or upgrade the existing convention center? Why not send the Central park back to vote to build a new park or upgrade existing parks?

[CaptDave]

My biggest issue with this is why is he saying it need to go back to a vote of the people when he is not pushing for any of the other projects are going back to a vote of the people? Why not send the Convention center back to a vote to build a new convention center or upgrade the existing convention center? Why not send the Central park back to vote to build a new park or upgrade existing parks?

Those are some "Questions" I bet you won't see in the Oklahoman......

[HangryHippo]

My biggest issue with this is why is he saying it need to go back to a vote of the people when he is not pushing for any of the other projects to go to a vote of the people? Why not send the Convention center back to a vote to build a new convention center or upgrade the existing convention center? Why not send the Central park back to vote to build a new park or upgrade existing parks?

Exactly. If he suddenly has moral qualms about the streetcar, then he needs to have those same moral qualms about every other project that he thinks circumvented the logrolling laws with the MAPS vote. Where's the questioning of his hypocrisy?

[Soho]

I believe this was the last route proposed by the citizen's committee (please correct me if I'm wrong):

Many thanks to those who invested so much time on the Citizen's committee! I still believe your recommendation is the best.

Needless to say as, as a resident of DD I'm hugely disappointed with the other proposals. It seems myopic to miss the the most populous area of downtown - downright insulting IMHO. How can you miss one of the largest groups of potential riders, and expect the system to succeed?

I believe this will hurt property values in DD, while increasing speculation and property values in Midtown. Watched it happen in Dallas during the 90's.

While a few blocks (depending on where the stops will be), doesn't seem like much, people with health issues affecting their walking abilities will be stranded on the Walnut street bridge.

Bett's is right that most of us in DD are walkers, and I will vote with my feet and continue to walk to my destination(s), rather than chase down out of the way stops.

[CaptDave]

Very valid point(s) Soho - I think the streetcar will eventually go through DD on a route to OUHSC. With that in mind, which street do you think would be best to enter DD? Come in from the west along 3rd or 4th? Or from the south on Walnut or another north-south street?

[city]

I think a 13th street track makes the most sense for an eventual connection to OUHSC. The 13th street is too wide and the traffc is too fast. The streetcar would dampen some of the traffic and it would eventually connect the most dense developed area of both OUHSC and Midtown. I do not think Dewey is a good corridor street; it is too narrow, too disruptive and the elevation changes are difficult; Walker or Hudson are better alternatives corridors. The Phase 2 could finish the connection of the loop thru OUHSC and to DD/ Bricktown. There is no need to consider the Cenrtral Park, C2S area until Phase 3.

[LakeEffect]

The issue with 10th or 13th connections to HSC is that we will most likely need a bridge to cross the BNSF ROW.

I don't think you need to qualify that statement. You would have to have a bridge to cross BNSF.

[Geographer]

why doesn't the initial phase 1 track include Deep Deuce? It seems like that's where most of the residential development is in the downtown area...so isn't that where you would want to grab all of those potential initial riders?

[warreng88]

Would a line up Russell M Perry be impossible due to the existing rail lines? The Walnut bridge has a pretty big incline to get over the rail line and RMP has none, but it has the existing rail lines.

[Soho]

Very valid point(s) Soho - I think the streetcar will eventually go through DD on a route to OUHSC. With that in mind, which street do you think would be best to enter DD? Come in from the west along 3rd or 4th? Or from the south on Walnut or another north-south street?

I was quite pleased with the committee''s plan of coming up Walnut from Bricktown to 2nd Street for now. Seemed logical to me that an extension north from there to catch OU health and the Capital complex would be next. While the eventual route may come along 4th Street, it may not happen in our lifetime. While the drama regarding this system seems bad now, it will only get worse as the Mayor's race heats up. We have been blessed with progressive leadership with the last three Mayors, but now are faced with a "hopey, changey," divisive candidate that could easily put us in the same flat spin that Tulsa is in.

We all have our own thoughts and plans but mine were pretty simple. Invest a large sum of money in a home that would require little, or no need for cars. A place where the my lovely wife and I can gracefully grow old together, while lessening our footprint on this earth. We are realizing that goal in that we drive 32,800 fewer miles a year (Averaged over 4.5 years), have cut precious water use, by not watering a suburban lawn, cut energy us by 2/3 with geothermal heat and air, etc. Part of that plan was to use public transportation to access health care as we age, that is now in question.

A common theme on this site is the dismal nature of the bus system. We have tried it and find it inconvenient and unreliable. Seems simple to me that any organism must have a strong core, and build from there. That is how I perceive the streetcar and bus system. Strengthen the core with a reliable, consistent streetcar system connected to busses until light rail becomes feasible.

I NEVER use busses when traveling in Chicago, San Francisco, New York, etc.. Been stranded, bus out of service, stop every block, aggressive panhandlers, too many stories to go into here. In big cities, I choose the train first and then cabs when feet aren't practical.

[CaptDave]

Would a line up Russell M Perry be impossible due to the existing rail lines? The Walnut bridge has a pretty big incline to get over the rail line and RMP has none, but it has the existing rail lines.

The grade on the Walnut Street bridge should not be an issue. The Baltimore streetcar has a similar (if not steeper) grade climbing from Penn Station.

[CaptDave]

We all have our own thoughts and plans but mine were pretty simple. Invest a large sum of money in a home that would require little, or no need for cars. A place where the my lovely wife and I can gracefully grow old together, while lessening our footprint on this earth. We are realizing that goal in that we drive 32,800 fewer miles a year (Averaged over 4.5 years), have cut precious water use, by not watering a suburban lawn, cut energy us by 2/3 with geothermal heat and air, etc. Part of that plan was to use public transportation to access health care as we age, that is now in question.

I share the same goal so I understand your points 100%. I think DD will eventually be served by the streetcar - I really see no way anyone could justify not getting there in Phase III and maybe sooner. My thought process is to make the initial phase so successful that demand will be created to build the extensive system to all the other destinations mentioned. To achieve that, I think we have to balance today's ridership with economic development. That is a tough balance to achieve and I appreciate all the thought and work going into it. As you said, there is more than one way to go about it and I will support any reasonable option selected.

[OKCisOK4me]

Would a line up Russell M Perry be impossible due to the existing rail lines? The Walnut bridge has a pretty big incline to get over the rail line and RMP has none, but it has the existing rail lines.

Walnut is not a big incline. There are bridges in Salt Lake City that have bigger inclines than Walnut.

[Urban Pioneer]

Walnut was evaluated and it is an acceptable grade for streetcars.

It is also three lanes. So in all practicality, a lane could be isolated by bollards and track bolted to the existing bridge structure. My understanding is that the right hand land would be the ideal lane. Of course, at the end of the bridges the track would go below grade into the street.

The "three lane design" is due to the bridge being reconstructed to it's original specifications. A total fluke as it relates to the opportunities for streetcar.

[Snowman]

I remember hearing someone say they built the capacity for the walnut bridge to have a streetcar when they redid it several years ago, since it's remodal was being done around the time there was still plans for a streetcar in the original MAPS

[Larry OKC]

Thanks a lot! I was able to make it this afternoon. I was a bit more excited about the idea of a streetcar than the routes presented though. All seemed to zigzag too much for my taste, and the "Reverse LPA" seemed to be the only one out of the four presented that could possibly make any sense to someone learning the system. And what did LPA stand for anyway?

LPA = locally preferred alternative. From the federal AA (alternative analysis) process

If that is what LPA means, does a Reverse LPA mean the opposite...in other words anything but what the locals prefer???

6 miles is bigger than our system will be. Phase 1 will be 4.5 max

That all depends on how much it really costs per mile doesn't it? IIRC, Urban stated that the numbers used during the campaign were the average cost and would cover the 5 to 6 miles promoted. We would end up with more if it costs less per mile and less if it costs more. Which begs the question, how are those average costs holding up how many years later?

From the City's cite: City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing

The first phase includes approximately four to four and a half miles of the proposed five to six-mile system.

So I am confused is Phase 1 and Phase 2 both covered in MAPS 3? If so, what time frame are we talking for Phase 2? Will it be done by the time the Park is complete (now that it has been broken up into different phases and completion being one of the last projects done)?


The same site mentions:

Some of the top criteria used to create the concept routes include:

• Serving key destinations
• Maximizing economic development potential
• Integration with the existing transportation network
• Optimal system operation
• Potential for expansion
• Technical considerations and cost projections

From what others are commenting, it doesn't seem like they followed their own "top criteria"???

To answer the questions posed to the committee members by the Jacobs group:
1) Not important to reach Central Park in Streetcar Phase I. The Core to Shore/Central Park loop is the obvious choice for Phase II however.

Can't disagree more. it is imperative that the Streetcar connect to as many of the MAPS projects as possible. Many of them are interdependent. The problem is some of the MAPS 3 projects locations haven't been selected yet (like Senior Aquatic Centers), but to dismiss connecting (not within a couple of blocks) with the already known locations (like the intermodal transit hub or the other existing train station) is absurd.

Same with connecting to tourist destinations (i.e., Bricktown, National Memorial) and serving the residents and major employers that already exist. Any route must connect with these too.

If they are talking about a Central Park Loop as Phase II, exactly what time-frame are we talking here? 10, 20, or more years from now (when completed)???

Unfortunately, I think there was a fundamental flaw in getting only the 5 to 6 miles "starter system" included in MAPS. it should have been much more inclusive and given that Mass Transit was the most often suggested MAPS 3 project, it should have been an easy sell to the voters. Just seems that by taking the "starter system" approach (and doing it poorly) is setting true Mass Trans in OKC up for failure. if it is a failure, no one is going to be likely to vote for an expansion. We have to get this right!

It was my expectation all along that MAPS 3 would be roughly a 10 year tax that included the all inclusive Mass transit system the Mayor often spoke about, the Convention Center and it escapes me right now what the 3rd big ticket item was going to be.

[BoulderSooner]

per maps 3 schedule phase 2 is 2019 City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing

[Larry OKC]

Boulder: thanks...so Phase 2 is scheduled to begin in 2019 (still 6 years away), what about completion?