Streetcar

[betts]

I'm just now wading into this discussion, but it does seem like a huge wasted opportunity to not run the streetcar to the OUHSC. Why would we not do that?

I'm the perfect target for a streetcar to the HSC. I live in Deep Deuce and I work at the HSC. I usually drive to work. I drive in at about 8 and I leave about 5. So I would ride it twice a day. I sometimes work weekends, but the HSC employee population falls off dramatically on weekends, as only hospital personnel work. There are no students and clinics are closed. The working population is even lower in the evening, and because most nurses are female, I suspect a lot of them would be reluctant to ride a mostly empty streetcar at night. No one on campus has a lot of time for lunch so there wouldnt be a big lunch population either. The majority of our patients do not live downtown. The only reason they currently come from downtown is because our crazy bus routes drag them to the bus transfer center. When we (hopefully) go to a grid system, there will be virtually no patient traffic from downtown. Many of the families of patients either stay in the room with the patient or at the Ronald McDonald House. There's soon going to be a hotel on campus. There are no restaurants or amenities in the area to attract visitors. So, you'd have a system with reasonably high ridership twice a day on weekdays. To me, that type of ridership begs for a few express buses a day.

A downtown route accommodates residents, employees and visitors. Because downtown is an all-day, late evening , 7 day a week destination with lots of jobs, housing and amenities (and increasing exponentially as we speak), it it a better fit for a streetcar route, IMO.

[HangryHippo]

first ? is where would you run the streetcar too? (serious ? OUHSC is a very big area) second how much after 5 and weekend ridership would this route produce?

third how much day time traffic would this produce??

1) Well, just off the top of my head, I'd say you run it up Lincoln to 10th St where it would turn east and go to Phillips. At Phillips, it would turn north and go to 13th St where it would then turn back west and return to Lincoln. That seems like it would be a simple path that would hit between many of the most traveled buildings (cancer center, OU Physicians, Children's, Professional building, Presbyterian). Where do you think it should run?

2) As for evening and weekend ridership, I don't really know. I'd guess it wouldn't be very much at all. But what if it was an option, in lieu of driving, for workers or visitors to go downtown after work, leaving their cars in the campus garages for like a Thunder game or concert and then riding it back and leaving from work? This is probably the strongest factor against running it to this area if I had to wager on it though.

3) I'm not sure, but I think it would have a fair bit. I'd sure use it to get downtown for some lunch or to conduct business if it was an option available instead of getting in my car. I'm sure there are many others that would do the same. I think it would certainly build traffic as it went on and people familiarized themselves with it.

[HangryHippo]

I'm the perfect target for a streetcar to the HSC. I live in Deep Deuce and I work at the HSC. I usually drive to work. I drive in at about 8 and I leave about 5. So I would ride it twice a day. I sometimes work weekends, but the HSC employee population falls off dramatically on weekends, as only hospital personnel work. There are no students and clinics are closed. The working population is even lower in the evening, and because most nurses are female, I suspect a lot of them would be reluctant to ride a mostly empty streetcar at night. No one on campus has a lot of time for lunch so there wouldnt be a big lunch population either. The majority of our patients do not live downtown. The only reason they currently come from downtown is because our crazy bus routes drag them to the bus transfer center. When we (hopefully) go to a grid system, there will be virtually no patient traffic from downtown. Many of the families of patients either stay in the room with the patient or at the Ronald McDonald House. There's soon going to be a hotel on campus. There are no restaurants or amenities in the area to attract visitors. So, you'd have a system with reasonably high ridership twice a day on weekdays. To me, that type of ridership begs for a few express buses a day.

A downtown route accommodates residents, employees and visitors. Because downtown is an all-day, late evening , 7 day a week destination with lots of jobs, housing and amenities (and increasing exponentially as we speak), it it a better fit for a streetcar route, IMO.

Look, I agree with most of what you said here. And if it's between here and downtown, I vote for downtown. But if we can extend it to the HSC, I think that's a smart thing to do too.

[Just the facts]

One of the problems OKC is going to have is that our major employment centers (HSC, Capitol, Tinker) are all built around the automobile so they don't have the concentration to serve them with just one stop. It takes a mile of track and 3 stops just to serve HSC.

[Dubya61]

One of the problems OKC is going to have is that our major employment centers (HSC, Capitol, Tinker) are all built around the automobile so they don't have the concentration to serve them with just one stop. It takes a mile of track and 3 stops just to serve HSC.

It's a shame there's not a way to service the HSC (and maybe the capitol) just during their business hours, for now.

[Rover]

It's a shame there's not a way to service the HSC (and maybe the capitol) just during their business hours, for now.

Just have a transfer off the streetcar to a bus over to the HSC with no additional fare and timed to coordinate with the streetcar. Run the bus routes heavier in the morn and afternoon and occasionally on the weekend. The bus can route through the HSC past the new Embassy Suites and the Toby Kieth facility.

[Pete]

Here are the four proposed streetcar routes presented today by the City's consultant:

[Pete]

I believe this was the last route proposed by the citizen's committee (please correct me if I'm wrong):

[blangtang]

I like the last 2 options, but it still seems like a lot of wasted track with the couplet feature.

I can already hear the deep deuce residents complaining about the options...

[HangryHippo]

The routes manage to avoid Deep Deuce and Film Row. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I can see leaving the PHF and OUHSC for a second phase, but how do you leave out those other two areas in a phase 1 devoted to downtown?

[Pete]

Notice the consultants left many "Major Destinations" in Deep Deuce, as it is by far the biggest concentration of downtown residents and that is not depicted in the slightest.

[Larry OKC]

My beef is that many of us believe that MAPS is a honor pact with the public for those in power to do the things they promised to do with the money. Break that pact and city officials will need to start funding projects individually. That might not be a bad thing. Imagine a future ballot:

1) NFL Stadium: .35% sales tax
2) Commuter rail down the I-35 and I-40 corridors: .55% sales tax
3) An expansion of the bricktown canal: .25% sales tax

etc..

Let each project stand or fall on its own. I'd have much more confidence in that if we voted for the commuter rail, it wouldn't be scrapped in favor of a dome on a football stadium built on spec.

I agree completely. Not only would it "not be a bad thing", it would be the right thing...the legal thing..the constitutional thing. And according to the Mayor and the Mayor's office, that is exactly what we were going to see on the Ballot.

David Holt Reports on Structure of a MAPS 3 Ballot | OKC Central

"…Should the Mayor and Council move forward with a MAPS 3 proposal, the process will certainly conform to the operative law…" -- David Holt, chief of staff to Mayor Mick Cornett

Oklahoma City MAPS out big plans | News OK

“... Each of these projects is going to have to stand on its own. ... ". -- Mayor* Mick Cornett

But it didn't happen. Why?
Again, according to Mr. Holt
David Holt Reports on Structure of a MAPS 3 Ballot | OKC Central

"…It would be our intention to stay close to the basic model the voters have shown themselves to be comfortable with."

and Mayor Cornett:
Oklahoma City Council to vote on MAPS ballot | News OK

Mayor Mick Cornett, who has spearheaded the MAPS 3 initiative, said an all-or-nothing approach for MAPS 3 was chosen because it has worked with voters in the past. "This is the process they are going to be comfortable with,”

Notice, no more mention of it being legal or not. Then there is the whole "comfortable" thing. As if voters aren't also used to seeing like-kind, individual propositions listed on the ballot. Just like we do on General Obligation Bond Issues. If they can lump all of the MAPS 3 projects under a vague "capital improvements" label, why can't they do the same on bond issues? Aren't most if not all bond projects "capital improvements"?

As far as the contention that it was due to recent changes in law, it wasn't. What did happen was the State Supreme Court reaffirmed and upheld the anti-logrolling provision in the State Constitution. Logrolling is prohibited by the State Constitution and has been for some time. Also, some have suggested that it was legal to logroll it on the original MAPS, but not now. Again, untrue. According to the City's legal council, the original MAPS ballot was probably illegal too, the issue was that no one challenged it in court.

AS FAR AS THE PROPOSED ROUTES GO:

None of the above

[OKCisOK4me]

I'm just a fan of Zeta. Reason being, it hits Hudson & 4th St, practically a direct tie in with the city bus system. We need to have both of those working with each other to coexist. It is also the only route that really wraps around Midtown/St. Anthony's area and also the only system that gets you two blocks closer west to the Film Row area. Deep Deuce residents can walk a couple of blocks just like Heritage Hills residents can walk a couple of blocks. It's just not going to service everyone and it will eventually be expanded outward with additional phases.

[Just the facts]

Those 4 plans suck. That is all I have to say about that.

[Just the facts]

Sid - I had to dig and follow links in your post to get to this, but everyone should read it so I am not going to post any snippets of it. OKC better get this streetcar right or we can start turning the lights off.

Letter from a millennial: We're not going to buy your house - Baltimore Business Journal

[HangryHippo]

Kansas City's streetcar was mocking us on their Twitter account. They see these plans for the disappointments they are.

[Urban Pioneer]

We'll folks, I'd say attend the upcomming public meetings and express your opinions. I had the meeting videotaped and will have an audio recording up later after Jon masters it.

I agree with many of your sentiments.

[BoulderSooner]

I like the last 2 options, but it still seems like a lot of wasted track with the couplet feature.

I can already hear the deep deuce residents complaining about the options...

How is it wasted track?

[BoulderSooner]

These routes defeat the purpose of a couplet - to create corridors of transit. None of these will accomplish that.

I'm so grateful for the work of the subcommittee thus far and I fear they've got a really difficult decision ahead of them.

What would your route be?

[OKCisOK4me]

We'll folks, I'd say attend the upcomming public meetings and express your opinions. I had the meeting videotaped and will have an audio recording up later after Jon masters it.

I agree with many of your sentiments.

Id love to do so but as always....none of these meetings mesh with my work schedule 12-8. Do a morning meeting and its a lock!

[Urban Pioneer]

Ok!

[Snowman]

These route options are depressing

[andrew3077]

Yes, and here is the docket: SIRE Public Access

Thanks a lot! I was able to make it this afternoon. I was a bit more excited about the idea of a streetcar than the routes presented though. All seemed to zigzag too much for my taste, and the "Reverse LPA" seemed to be the only one out of the four presented that could possibly make any sense to someone learning the system. And what did LPA stand for anyway?

[BoulderSooner]

LPA = locally preferred alternative. From the federal AA (alternative analysis) process

[BoulderSooner]

6 miles is bigger than our system will be. Phase 1 will be 4.5 max