Midtown

[Spartan]

1212 will be rental from what I've seen. They're dubbed as luxury apartments, so I don't know what that means.. I mean it will only offer 1 and 2 bedroom floor plans.

[dismayed]

God I'm going to be old or dead before this city gets its act together. Maybe I should just take my toys and go home now.

[circuitboard]

1212 will be rental from what I've seen. They're dubbed as luxury apartments, so I don't know what that means.. I mean it will only offer 1 and 2 bedroom floor plans.

Way to many apartments in Oklahoma City, with the label "Luxury Apartments".....what you have a pool and a tennis court? How about get rid of the nasty counter tops, that 80's flooring, and those ancient faucets. So many apartments in OKC are disappointing. Why does Dallas get nicer apartments in the same price range? Example, best friend in Dallas pays, 900 for a 1 bedroom in uptown, private underground parking, for him, guests and family, no on street parking, wood flooring, granite counter tops, stainless appliances, w/d included, modern cabinets with stainless steel handles, glass tile backsplash, and pool with dj and bbq. I would like to see this in OKC. Correct me on this guys, am I missing something? What is the deal with apartments here?

[Steve]

God I'm going to be old or dead before this city gets its act together. Maybe I should just take my toys and go home now.

Well, yeah, I guess you can take that approach. Or you can be a part of the solution. What is it that has you giving up hope?

[wsucougz]

We need more apartments downtown. 1212 will be a hit.

Like midtowner said, the days of easy financing for condos are numbered, at every level. The government is getting killed on condo defaults and those ratios are looking worse every day. Even if a builder could get financing, I have to imagine there is just too much uncertainty in most cases as to whether anyone could(or would) actually buy them two years down the road.

If we had started building out Midtown, Deep Deuce, etc in the mid-nineties, I imagine things would look a lot different. We missed the boat a little.

[Spartan]

Cougz is right about the condo development financing but there is nothing to my knowledge preventing other urban developments right now. Retail has rebounded since the economy. Apartments never really took the hit that condos did, nor did office space. I don't know if you all realize, but stocks have recovered 60% since March. It's been a silent recovery. So I am tired of hearing that the economy is the reason for everything, especially now more than ever.

More than anything I'm ticked off at the banking institutions that are refusing to lend right now. Chairman Obama gave them all this great TARP money that they were supposed to put back into the economy. NEVER happened--they took our money and hoarded it. In my opinion it's one of the bigger shams we've seen with the bailout/stimulus/etc..so far. But that really only applies to some projects, particularly for-sale residential.

There's no reason for-rent residential can't get off the ground in this climate. The thing holding us back is mentality. A few years ago condos were the huge fad..in essence, they were like the 2000s version of urban renewal in my opinion. Every city had to have 'em and to not have them would cast dispersions on a city's style.

In OKC, OCURA and anyone involved in soliciting developments in Downtown (DT OKC Inc.) were really busy pushing high-end for-sale projects as the way to go. They thought that if we let more moderately priced developments in then it would be difficult to get the high-end stuff later. They thought we would be able to max out demand for high-end condo units and then work our way down the pyramid. Well like pretty much all fads, then came reality. Anyone who has ever studied economics knows that you don't work your way down a pyramid, you work your way UP.

Instead they could have opted for trying to encourage a critical mass of development (development that the market could support) instead of this piece-meal style of doing one parcel, then having the rest be a mudpit for 5 years, then finally developing the mudpit (maybe). That isn't gonna cut it because, as I've preached before, you can have the snazziest urban loft this side of St Lou..it aint real downtown living when the lot next to you is a mudpit with vagrants and billboards. So why even bother with the downtown residential options we have right now? The only thing downtown living can really offer differently is lifestyle, I think we're all agreed you don't move downtown for practical reasons (or you don't need to). So if we're not offering a real downtown lifestyle, or encouraging the diversity that is the spice of that lifestyle, then WHAT IS EVEN THE POINT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

[max]

Maybe it's just me, but when I think of what I would like to see our downtown evolve into I have a much better opinion of Midtown than I do Bricktown. Midtown is just so much more organic and has more of a true urban feel.

It's not just you; I feel the same way and I don't think it's too uncommon. And as a disclaimer, I'm not dissing Bricktown; quite the opposite, I think it's great and essential.

Midtown now feels like it could be a big city, Chicago-style neighborhood to me, even with all of the gaps in the fabric. I get that feel when I'm there, and I don't know that I can even really understand why. Maybe it is just how organic and closer to true mixed use that it is. If I was in the market to purchase or build a home now, I'd be looking in Midtown.

Bricktown is great for me occasionally, but I consider it a tourist trap. It's like a Disney version of a district, shiny and planned and precise. That's cool, and a lot of cities have districts like that, but it's not going to be my normal hangout and I wouldn't want to live there.

In the end, it's all great; diverse lifestyle options to really accommodate different groups of people are essential in a world class city. I hope we can have the best case scenarios in both of those areas, and I hope more and more of the adjoining areas begin to evolve into more ideal uses...the whole city will benefit from it in the end.

[soonerguru]

In OKC, OCURA and anyone involved in soliciting developments in Downtown (DT OKC Inc.) were really busy pushing high-end for-sale projects as the way to go. They thought that if we let more moderately priced developments in then it would be difficult to get the high-end stuff later. They thought we would be able to max out demand for high-end condo units and then work our way down the pyramid. Well like pretty much all fads, then came reality. Anyone who has ever studied economics knows that you don't work your way down a pyramid, you work your way UP.

I know we've discussed this on other threads, but this is a great point. In real cities where you see gentrification, it starts with the lower rung hipsters and pioneers moving in first, then more established yuppies, and finally, it's safe enough for the rich folks.

Let's face it. Rich folks aren't necessarily very interesting, and don't necessarily make a neighborhood "vibrant," although their money comes in handy when trying to lure the inevitable upscale urban retailers.

[betts]

But, you've usually got old apartments and houses that the hipsters move into before the yuppies move into and ultimately fix up. We don't have the neighborhoods of older multistory buildings in which that can happen, typically if you're building de novo for people who need cheaper housing developers build cheaper buildings that don't age well. It may make more sense to build higher end new buildings which, as they age, may drop in price allowing the people with lower incomes to move in. I realize that runs counter to what most people think here but if we've got cheaper new housing, it will never ultimately be renovatable for the wealthier because it won't have the charm of older buildings in other cities.

[Spartan]

I think that there is enough urban fabric available for those kinds of conversions that we're good on that regard. Plus sometimes it can be more expensive to renovate an old building than to build anew, even quality new construction. Especially in Oklahoma where construction and land prices are very cheap.

I've always thought that the "cheap land" theory in Oklahoma City should never be a hindrance to downtown, because that still applies to downtown, esp comparatively to other cities. Land in DT OKC is nowhere near as expensive as land in DTD or Uptown Charlotte or the Inner Loop in Houston, etc..

[betts]

It sounds like the only financing these days will be for rentals anyway. So, it may be a moot point for awhile.

[king183]

Way to many apartments in Oklahoma City, with the label "Luxury Apartments".....what you have a pool and a tennis court? How about get rid of the nasty counter tops, that 80's flooring, and those ancient faucets. So many apartments in OKC are disappointing. Why does Dallas get nicer apartments in the same price range? Example, best friend in Dallas pays, 900 for a 1 bedroom in uptown, private underground parking, for him, guests and family, no on street parking, wood flooring, granite counter tops, stainless appliances, w/d included, modern cabinets with stainless steel handles, glass tile backsplash, and pool with dj and bbq. I would like to see this in OKC. Correct me on this guys, am I missing something? What is the deal with apartments here?

Go check out The Lincoln. The apartments I've seen there are very nice and match your description (minus wood floors). And they're cheaper than 900 for a 1 bedroom.

[Spartan]

The Lincoln at Central Park is not an urban development, it's at Lincoln and I-44 on your way up to Edmond. Downtown is the size of an ant from those apartments. Just look at my avatar that I shot from Broadway and 63rd..

And they aren't urban/sophisticated/chic or anything else Tanenbaum has tried to market them as. They are cookie cutter suburban apartments.

[soonerguru]

But, you've usually got old apartments and houses that the hipsters move into before the yuppies move into and ultimately fix up. We don't have the neighborhoods of older multistory buildings in which that can happen, typically if you're building de novo for people who need cheaper housing developers build cheaper buildings that don't age well. It may make more sense to build higher end new buildings which, as they age, may drop in price allowing the people with lower incomes to move in. I realize that runs counter to what most people think here but if we've got cheaper new housing, it will never ultimately be renovatable for the wealthier because it won't have the charm of older buildings in other cities.

Great points. I think we can split the difference by providing a greater variety of housing at different price points.

One thought: Why aren't we seeing more apartment rehabs of the upper stories in Auto Alley? There seems like a lot of opportunity there.

I'm not suggesting that the housing be "cheap." I think it still needs to be well built and high quality.

[Spartan]

Guru -- we should be hearing about something like that coming along soon actually. I think the Pauls, but I'm not sure, are the ones who are fixing to put 5-6 loft units in above the bank on the east side of Broadway over by Schlegel Bicycles. I forget which bank, it's the beige/tan one with the corner awning.

So many of the buildings in A-Alley are corporate offices that are immaculate, very tres moderne on the interior. They've used up all of the building for that. BMI and Ackerman for example.

[soonerguru]

Guru -- we should be hearing about something like that coming along soon actually. I think the Pauls, but I'm not sure, are the ones who are fixing to put 5-6 loft units in above the bank on the east side of Broadway over by Schlegel Bicycles. I forget which bank, it's the beige/tan one with the corner awning.

So many of the buildings in A-Alley are corporate offices that are immaculate, very tres moderne on the interior. They've used up all of the building for that. BMI and Ackerman for example.

Well that is just dumb. Auto Alley should be mixed use. It is perfect for retail, residential and some office. There's too much office use right now. The mix is wrong.

[Spartan]

You would be surprised how much retail there is along A-Alley. Bicycle Alley, Coffee Slingers, Schlegel Bicycles, Red Prime Steakhouse, CD Warehouse, new wine store, etc. I think the absolute perfect place for an Urban Outfitters would be 1101 Broadway, when they get that finished. I just wish it would have lofts instead of office above. Same for 1100 Broadway, the 2-story across the street.

Add the 9th Street business and MidTown in close proximity and you have a very cool district. I think A-Alley has the most potential as a "main street" for communities on the north side of downtown. It just needs the surrounding area to fill in, and it could be something quite cool. It always reminds me of M Street in Georgetown. I really wish we could get something like that going in OKC.

[Architect2010]

I agree with Guru. Too much office in Automobile Alley. Not enough retail and residential.

[jbrown84]

But, you've usually got old apartments and houses that the hipsters move into before the yuppies move into and ultimately fix up. We don't have the neighborhoods of older multistory buildings in which that can happen, typically if you're building de novo for people who need cheaper housing developers build cheaper buildings that don't age well. It may make more sense to build higher end new buildings which, as they age, may drop in price allowing the people with lower incomes to move in. I realize that runs counter to what most people think here but if we've got cheaper new housing, it will never ultimately be renovatable for the wealthier because it won't have the charm of older buildings in other cities.

They may not be on every corner, but the existing old apartment buildings are already filling up with young professional types. Where they once were abandoned or crack houses, they are now legit apartments for people somewhat on a budget. There are a lot that could still use some renovations to get to that point (there's a great one next to the gas station at 5th and Walker). That's our entry level housing for downtown. Upper floors of A-Alley can be the same. Some buildings can be higher end like Sieber. Then there is room for expensive condos and some middle of the road newly constructed luxury apartments. I still think Legacy got it right as an urban development, even if it has suburban aesthetics.

[Spartan]

Legacy is a basic project that works. Henderson did a great job with the retail tenant mix.

[LakeEffect]

Legacy is a basic project that works. Henderson did a great job with the retail tenant mix.

Reminds me of a quote in an article I read the other day - "It’s not great architecture by a long shot. But it’s good urban design." Found it in an article about Boston's convention center (the quote refers to Philly).

Expanded convention center must do more than get bigger - The Boston Globe

[Spartan]

Thanks for that article. Looks like Boston's mainstream media is preaching the same things I've been trying to tell OKC about convention centers.

[soonerhcf]

From journalrecord.com:

Movement in Midtown
Reporter Tom Lindley says it looks like some new projects may be coming on line soon in Midtown, while others may be just getting underway. He’ll be following that up for Friday’s paper.

I wonder what's going on?

[Steve]

I suspect he's about to do a round-up of things that are already well-known: apartments coming to the Kline and Hadden Hall, plans to renovate 1212 N Walker (he'll be forced to speculate because Howard and Clagg aren't talking yet), the arrival of a new restaurant next to 1492 New World Cuisine, the opening of the antique store, etc....

[Spartan]

Some competition for Steve, eh? Just kidding.