Ed Shadid Launches Formal Attack on MAPS 3 Conv Center in tandem with Mayoral Bid

[mkjeeves]

Two separate issues but please feel free to freak out about both of them simultaneously.

There's no way Ed is getting elected.

I think it highly doubtful the CC would get voted down on a revote, if they get the signatures. The conversation about the BS surrounding the CC economics needs to happen, especially as we continue to make related decisions about it.

[betts]

I have no problem with greater transparency in government. I think we are developing enough of a progressive, activist base that old school politics need to go by the wayside. However, if you talk the talk, you'd better walk the walk (sorry for the aphorism but its fairly succinct). Ed can't keep blathering about honesty and transparency while epitomizing dishonesty and manipulative behavior, ignoring his constituents to promote his agenda. If the end justifies the means, as Ed's actions indicate he believes, I'll take Mick's goals for the city over Ed's any day.

[mkjeeves]

I voted for the CC. At this point, with the misinformation leading the notion we need to expand it and possibly subsidize a hotel, I'm fine with killing it and talking about it sometime later when people want to be more honest about it, next year, five years from now, ten years from now. It won't break my heart either way. I'll get up and fight about any next phase or subsidy now though.

[catch22]

I voted for the CC. At this point, with the misinformation leading the notion we need to expand it and possibly subsidize a hotel, I'm fine with killing it and talking about it sometime later when people want to be more honest about it, next year, five years from now, ten years from now. It won't break my heart either way. I'll get up and fight about any next phase or subsidy now though.

You need to look at the big picture. If we cancel the CC, it will set a precedent with our leaders. And it will forever damage MAPS.

[warreng88]

Let say ES doesn't not get elected Mayor and the convention center goes on as planned. What other ways would be viable to add a phase II if people voted down another MAPS proposal? Bonds? Would those pass? How have other cities gone about building and expanding their convention centers and other large city spaces?

[mkjeeves]

You need to look at the big picture. If we cancel the CC, it will set a precedent with our leaders. And it will forever damage MAPS.

Lots of assumptions there and there are alternate possibilities... here's one. What's it going to do when we build a major project that doesn't live up to what was sold and they follow it by throwing good money after bad using the same hype?

[Bellaboo]

Lots of assumptions there and there are alternate possibilities... here's one. What's it going to do when we build a major project that doesn't live up to what was sold and they follow it by throwing good money after bad using the same hype?

Let me ask you this - How many MAPS projects have been miserable failures ? How many have been marginal failures ?

How many projects have made a positive change to our city?

[mkjeeves]

Of course. That's why it's worked as a brand, particularly with the success of Maps 1 leading off. That's also one reason why I think it has more resilience for worthwhile projects than some here seem to believe. However, we did pick a lot of low hanging fruit the first time and as time goes by that will be harder to do.

[Pete]

Remember that with the original MAPS, there had to be a subsequent vote to extend the sales tax increase to finish some of the projects.

That passed and the MAPS brand was clearly not impacted, as we've had two pass since, plus the arena improvements.

[mkjeeves]

That does bring up a question that deserves it's own thread probably. What's the general consensus on the overall value of Maps for Kids now that a most or lot of it is complete? I don't see where it is talked about here except that when people roll it out as an example of a city wide effort vs downtown centric. Izzat being discussed anywhere on this forum?

[betts]

The renovated schools I've seen look great. That's the extent of my interaction so far, although I hope to be an OKPS volunteer soon.

[bradh]

That does bring up a question that deserves it's own thread probably. What's the general consensus on the overall value of Maps for Kids now that a most or lot of it is complete? I don't see where it is talked about here except that when people roll it out as an example of a city wide effort vs downtown centric. Izzat being discussed anywhere on this forum?

That's probably going to be more a long term judgement, I'd think, but just a guess.

[Midtowner]

The renovated schools I've seen look great. That's the extent of my interaction so far, although I hope to be an OKPS volunteer soon.

I did a presentation at Douglass. It was nicer than either of the high schools I went to--McGuiness and Edmond North.

[mkjeeves]

I've seen a good number of the schools, through the years, before during and after Maps for Kids. IMO the money was well spent and needed to be spent. Part of what I'm am curious about is the perception and reality of the effects for doing that, in the larger context, but knowing reality would be hard to measure. What metric(s) would be used? School pride? Neighborhood pride? Citizen satisfaction with their kids' education? Student test scores? Neighborhood stability?

My curiosity is in part related to this exchange between Pete and Sid where Pete mentioned Maps for Kids.

Stage Center Tower - OKCTalk

Seems like that whole can of worms might need it's own place to discuss. The angst on the CC topic is far from over.

[shawnw]

That does bring up a question that deserves it's own thread probably. What's the general consensus on the overall value of Maps for Kids now that a most or lot of it is complete? I don't see where it is talked about here except that when people roll it out as an example of a city wide effort vs downtown centric. Izzat being discussed anywhere on this forum?

My two kids go to different OKCPS high schools. Plus between their extra curricular activities (both in Middle and High School), I think we've been to all or most of the Middle and High Schools in the district. My very arbitrary/non-scientific personal grade for MAPS for Kids is a B. It's a net positive gain overall, definitely needed to happen (hard to believe we got by with how things were all that time, looking back), things generally look good, and the new schools really bring up (from say a B-) the grade (hopefully they are well maintained over the years), but I feel some of the renovations fall a little short (though others exceeded expectations). However, any shortcomings I cannot blame on MAPS or the government as I don't think they could have foreseen the issues in particular. Some improvements were cut, for example, due to budget overruns. While I'm sure they could have reasonably expected budget overruns, I'm not sure they could have known what would end up getting cut or watered down at particular schools.

[SoonerDave]

That does bring up a question that deserves it's own thread probably. What's the general consensus on the overall value of Maps for Kids now that a most or lot of it is complete? I don't see where it is talked about here except that when people roll it out as an example of a city wide effort vs downtown centric. Izzat being discussed anywhere on this forum?

I don't know that question can ever be answered in an up or down fashion.

The only thing we can see right now are the immediate results necessarily visible from construction projects. The necessity of building new or remediating old schools was hard to argue, but whether creating new buildings does anything for their "interior," eg administration, staffing, philosophy, parent involvement, etc. is a great deal harder to measure, and even harder to assess is the specific aspect of that change that attributable to Maps for Kids. I've heard some good stories and some bad stories - bad stories about new, MAPS-paid facilities getting damaged and vandalized because the core attendance group was not affected at all, and a new building had little chance of affecting change. And I've heard the opposite, that in tandem with new buildings, other projects were initiated that improved staffing, student participation, and parent involvement - but those projects weren't MAPS funded.

[kevinpate]

But, those projects, while not MAPs4Kids funded, were most likely inspired because the consumers of the school benefited through MAPs4Kids

[OKVision4U]

Lots of assumptions there and there are alternate possibilities... here's one. What's it going to do when we build a major project that doesn't live up to what was sold and they follow it by throwing good money after bad using the same hype?

Jeeves, your not going to drag me into a politics conversation, but I want to be clear on this. What you described above is true about most all things. All projects are over-hyped. All relationships (are over-hyped..... goood at the beginning, not so good later, ha ha.) Every product we purchase, is over-hyped. The adults that voted for MAPS 3, know this. They understand this.

MAPS is working in-spite of these expectations. That is what is so unique about OKC for the past 20 years with MAPS. We (The People) get to decide on a list of projects, save a few pennys up for a few years, and build that ballpark, ...central park, ...and an Oklahoma River. Are you kidding me? ...this works.

The entire reason it works, is because (We The People) decided that ( 1. If it is to succeed, then it must be OUT of the hands of the politicians & not in a general fund & special interest groups cant touch it or derail it ).

If we wanted to open it up for faillure, we would have let it the way it was, and the current system we call ( local / state / federal ) government. So, if you / Ed / Edgar and any other group tries to "Undo" what We The People put together in MAPS, that has placed Pride in our hearts again and has brought our city & state back from the dust bowl of economics, ask yourself why?

If The PEOPLE are not asking for it, then why are you? We The People, aleady voted on the CC.

[mkjeeves]

If The PEOPLE are not asking for it,

We're talking about a process for The PEOPLE to petition for a vote. That's The PEOPLE asking for it, if it happens to come to a vote and it will be The People voting it down if they do. That's a valid process.

[OKVision4U]

We're talking about a process for The PEOPLE to petition for a vote. That's The PEOPLE asking for it, if it happens. That's a valid process.

No, just a couple of guys w/ Bullhorns, Microphones, and a couple of blogs.

[mkjeeves]

and 6000 citizens willing to sign their name on a petition, per the law. Which remains to be seen.

[OKVision4U]

and 6000 citizens willing to sign their name on a petition, per the law. Which remains to be seen.

Like I said before, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Don't go there.

[kevinpate]

No, just a couple of guys w/ Bullhorns, Microphones, and a couple of blogs.

Pssst, when you find yourself in a hole, the first best option is to stop digging. The only way it comes to a vote is if the people want it to come to a vote. Any Idgits with a blog and any Foghorn Leghorn with a mic can try to stir things up, but it takes real people to sign a 6000 name petition.

I'm not crazy on the notion of what the noise makers are doing, but, well, yes, the people have the absolute right to shoot themselves in their collective feet if they decide to do that.
Democracy. It ain't always pretty, and sometimes it down right sucks, and sometimes it is the worst process there is ... except for all the others.

[SoonerDave]

Keep in mind, too, that the initiative petition process isn't a slam dunk. As popular as the general idea of storm shelters in schools is, the organization that set out to put it to a ballot couldn't get enough signatures. Realize it isn't a perfect analogy, but the idea holds. I think the whole discussion about the CC/hotel is so married now to Shadid's personal agenda that the notion of a more frank, objective discussion of the issues at hand has become just about impossible. I think, right now, you put that petition out there, when people hear "maps/stop the convention center" they're going to almost immediately hear "Shadid" in the back of their heads and just walk away.

That said, ultimately, the whole thing may be decided in the confines of the Shadid campaign, at least what's left of it; if there are still 6K acolytes of his out there, and they're determined enough to torpedo the thing, that organization itself might be enough to get it on the ballot. Don't pretend to know if there are 6K people out there willing to identify themselves as his supporters these days. (Okay, 5,999, assuming Edgar is real and is eligible to sign the petition..forgive the intense sarcasm.....)

[kevinpate]

If the petition folks know their stuff, and get the opportunity, they can get 6000 signatures. If they hand off the effort to someone with true believer syndrome but no experience, then they'll probably come up short.