Core to Shore

[OKCisOK4me]

Must we remind Larry that Union Station has been rendered useless when it comes to being redeemed as an actual station. Yes, if we get East/West commuter rail service on that line--one day--it might make for a nice lil stop but it's just too far away from downtown to be a pedestrian friendly stop. The Santa Fe station is THE STATION that is in the works.

[Spartan]

The reason Union Station was rendered useless is because the rail yard was removed by ODOT, I hear they built a highway up against it, so as to make sure there is never room again to make Union Station viable as a hub for rail.

[Dubya61]

The reason Union Station was rendered useless is because the rail yard was removed by ODOT, I hear they built a highway up against it, so as to make sure there is never room again to make Union Station viable as a hub for rail.

(Sarcasm inferred, I believe, but) Please forgive my naivete: Is ODOT against non-automobile transportation? What the heck does ODOT stand for? and should it be ODOA?

[Spartan]

Well, I have never accused ODOT of much simply because I don't know a lot about them, but I do think the Crosstown project was a Big Dig (any project that triples in cost over its lifetime strikes me as pretty corrupt), many transit experts have accused ODOT of having a vendetta against trains, and the moderate transit experts who can't afford to burn bridges have even said that the rail office at ODOT is a corner of a basement. So you can draw your own conclusions...

So at best they just don't understand rail and won't give it a chance, at worst...(I think these things fall in the middle usually)

[catcherinthewry]

Well, I have never accused ODOT of much simply because I don't know a lot about them

"Don't know a lot about them".....but then you go on to throw a bunch of speculation about them out there. Wow.

[Spartan]

"Don't know a lot about them".....but then you go on to throw a bunch of speculation about them out there.

A bunch of speculation? Wow. I could say a lot worse things about ODOT, I thought the poster would appreciate a more conservative answer that allowed him to draw his own conclusions. Here's a whole post I did a while ago on ODOT's legacy in downtown OKC. For those of you who don't know, it was ODOT that completely leveled almost all of Deep Deuce.
http://downtownontherange.blogspot.c...in-dt-okc.html

And let me get this straight. You're personally attacking me for pausing and avoiding a blanket statement, deferring to comments from people who would know a lot more on the situation than me, and then keeping the scope of my comments to what I do know.

But yes, I apologize for keeping my more indicting comments to the entities that I do know the ins and outs of. Let us know if you care to defend ODOT against any of the facts anyone else has stated. I'll also mention that I know last time was the first time ODOT has ever submitted a "real" RFP to FTA for meaningful rail transit funds, meaning that they actively decided against for all prior appropriation rounds.

I also know that FTA decided against giving OKC a grant to extend our streetcar coverage because they noted a significant lack of political will, I would conservatively guess that ODOT had a lot to do with that. I guess I forgot to mention that.

[OKCisOK4me]

19 vs 7291...whoops!

[BoulderSooner]

Must we remind Larry that Union Station has been rendered useless when it comes to being redeemed as an actual station. Yes, if we get East/West commuter rail service on that line--one day--it might make for a nice lil stop but it's just too far away from downtown to be a pedestrian friendly stop. The Santa Fe station is THE STATION that is in the works.

even an east west line would not go by union station it would go from MWC to Sante Fe to the airport to ??

[catcherinthewry]

19 vs 7291...whoops!

And how many of those 7291 have been negative. I may not have been around very long, but it doesn't take long to get tired of Spartan's constant negativity. I've gotten the impression that I'm not the only one.

And let me get this straight. You're personally attacking me for pausing and avoiding a blanket statement, deferring to comments from people who would know a lot more on the situation than me, and then keeping the scope of my comments to what I do know.

You call that a personal attack? I just thought it was ironic that you stated that you didn't know much about ODOT then threw out accusations about them while attributing them to uncited "transit experts".

[catcherinthewry]

http://downtownontherange.blogspot.c...in-dt-okc.html

Finally a citation.......oh wait, you're citing yourself.

[kevinpate]

A park, a park
a lark flew by a park
No waiting, no baiting
no highway or rail hating
a park, a park, a park

and ... the potential for development around it.

I'm thinking some big open kite flying space will be fun when it is in place.

[Larry OKC]

MAPS IV Larry! I should insert an evil grin smiley here, I suppose. There's only so much money, and the streetcar will stop across from the park. The park itself will be a destination, and if there's something interesting in Union Station such as a restaurant, a museum, some shopping, people will walk there during their stroll through the park. I'd like to see it used as an event center as well, as people will want to get married in the park, and it would be nice to have an adjacent reception option.

(Not all directed at Betts)
And it may be MAPS 4 before we are ready to use Union Station for its designed purpose (rail transport) again. While some of the tracks were torn out with I-40 relocation, it is my understanding that some remain so it could still be used for a Streetcar stop. i understand that the Santa Fe is going to be the Hub (I have said it before, from an asthetics standpoint, I would flop the two buildings if I could), but that doesn't mean Union Station can't be utilized too...it is far from being "rendered useless". It is only rendered useless if you make the deliberate decision to make it that way be not having the Streetcar go there which is what wee are doing if the proposed route is approved. it is not too late to correct it. I understand the limited funds aspect (but offered suggestions to get more mile for the buck on that, at least enough to make it to Union Station). Hopefully if it isn't somehow used for Streetcars, it will be used for other Park purposes(but why not those and a Streetcar stop too?) like a place to get something to eat, rent a bike etc and not remain office space for our parking folks....which is definitely not an example of higher and/or best use IMHO

Also, in Core to Show renderings, there was supposed to be an Event Center built next to the Station but it was one of the things that committee said the Park needed to have that got eliminated

[Larry OKC]

A park, a park
a lark flew by a park
No waiting, no baiting
no highway or rail hating
a park, a park, a park

and ... the potential for development around it.

I'm thinking some big open kite flying space will be fun when it is in place.

Be careful of the trees and the power lines from the substation...

[Just the facts]

<sigh> This is what I was talking about having the Streetcar going to Union Station...the fact that it went there would help make it a destination, instead of an interesting focal backdrop

The difference is Larry that the Cincy streetcar will serve two exisiting destinations on the south side of the freeway - two sports stadiums one of which hosts 91 home games. Union Station doesn't host anything.

[Larry OKC]

JTF: And it wont as long as people keep viewing it the way they are...I was agreeing with your point that for walking (as some are suggesting is going to happen with the way the Streetcar is routed now), is that it needs to be a destination point, that can be helped by it being a Streetcar stop along with the other things betts mentioned...you asked:

If you were in downtown Cincy and there was not a game would you walk over to the stadium?

Is someone going to walk to Union Station if there is nothing there?

And my apologies, I am not trying to hijack the thread but the Park and Streetcar are an integral part of Core to Shore

[Just the facts]

I know we had this discussion before but let's say the streetcar gos to Union Station and has a stop right at the front door. Who do you envision getting on and off at this stop? Where is this person going, where are they coming from, and why are they there? Are they just going to go there because that is where the streetcar goes?

[Larry OKC]

The same folks that are riding the streetcar to any of the stops on the route. Those that want to check out the Union Station and what it has to offer, those using the Park but aren't inclined to walk it from one end to the other to do so. Those wanting to go across the SkyDancer bridge. If you have no interest in that particular stop, you stay on it until it gets where you want to go...same for any of the other stops. Same for bus stops or any other form of transportation

[Just the facts]

Based on those activites you provided I can probably count on one hand the number of people who fit that profile. If you don't like to walk why are you going to the park or crossing a 400' pedestrian bridge? Maybe an urban excursion train would be more suited to what you are thinking.

[ljbab728]

Based on those activites you provided I can probably count on one hand the number of people who fit that profile. If you don't like to walk why are you going to the park or crossing a 400' pedestrian bridge? Maybe an urban excursion train would be more suited to what you are thinking.

Here's the solution, Kerry. LOL

Put one of these running all over the park and nobody will have to walk anywhere.

[Spartan]

I used to ride the one at the Zoo when I was on training wheels. I don't even know if they still have that train out at the Zoo, but it was cool. That just made me realize my earliest train love, thanks ljbab.

There's also something identical to this at old timey amusement parks like Cedar Point in Ohio or Arnolds Park in Iowa.

[ljbab728]

I used to ride the one at the Zoo when I was on training wheels. I don't even know if they still have that train out at the Zoo, but it was cool. That just made me realize my earliest train love, thanks ljbab.

There's also something identical to this at old timey amusement parks like Cedar Point in Ohio or Arnolds Park in Iowa.

I was joking in posting that video but actually something like that might eventually be a fun thing for the park.

[Just the facts]

I was joking in posting that video but actually something like that might eventually be a fun thing for the park.

If anyone ever gets the chance check out the Largo Central Park Railroad in Largo, FL. If you love trains then you will love that park. On the first full weekend of eveny month they have model trains big enough to ride and the tracks go all over the park. Very cool and very fun.

http://www.lcrailroad.com/

[Buffalo Bill]

The reason Union Station was rendered useless is because the rail yard was removed by ODOT, I hear they built a highway up against it, so as to make sure there is never room again to make Union Station viable as a hub for rail.

According to JTF post#353, the single lane of track that currently runs past Union Station has the transportation equivalent of 318' of roadway. I'd hardly consider Union station to be rendered useless.

[Buffalo Bill]

Well, I have never accused ODOT of much simply because I don't know a lot about them, but I do think the Crosstown project was a Big Dig (any project that triples in cost over its lifetime strikes me as pretty corrupt), many transit experts have accused ODOT of having a vendetta against trains, and the moderate transit experts who can't afford to burn bridges have even said that the rail office at ODOT is a corner of a basement. So you can draw your own conclusions...

So at best they just don't understand rail and won't give it a chance, at worst...(I think these things fall in the middle usually)

I visited the ODOT rail branch years ago after a fatal car train accident at Coffee Creek road and the BNSF. They have the top floor SW corner office. Great views of downtown. Maybe your "moderate transit experts who can't afford to burn bridges" should visit them, too. Or maybe stop telling lies.

[Just the facts]

According to JTF post#353, the single lane of track that currently runs past Union Station has the transportation equivalent of 318' of roadway. I'd hardly consider Union station to be rendered useless.

The problem is that the one track is owned by Union Pacific who said no to people on or near the tracks.