Lake Hefner at record low water levels, when will city buy Canton water?

[mkjeeves]

Sure seems to me that way. It's an artificial lake created for purposes other than Canton wants to use it for. If it had never been built where would that water be?

[law]

The Lake was built for flood control, irrigation, and some municipal water. If farmers here had chosen to irrigate from the North Canadian, where would OKC be now?

I will never understand why so many of you are determined to squander the resources you have. No one has tried to stop the water, all they have asked is to delay the release as long as possible, and give the Lake a chance to survive. You ignore the facts at your own peril.

[mkjeeves]

The Lake was built for flood control, irrigation, and some municipal water.

Exactly. The purposes the majority of Canton residents want, the visitors they seek want and their water laden lifestyles are not listed. If it's not a fictional supply, where is Canton's water to serve these desires?

[law]

So, are you proposing no one use the Lake except OKC? After all, it is still a flood control lake, and federal taxpayers pay 75% of the expenses on that lake. Concessionaires pay for the right to be on that lake.

You refuse to educate yourselves.

[artful]

I'm guessing it's not going to be received as politically correct to talk about recreational use of Hefner in this thread... we're supposed to be taking the moral high ground and pretending that our orphans are going to be dehydrated if we don't stop the rich from driving their bass boats all over Canton Lake, right?

But I pay a yearly fee to the city of OKC to lease a boat slip at Hefner which is now useless at least (probably more than) half of the year. I'm selfishly excited about the draw because it might be enough to get my boat floating again instead of sitting on the dirt like it has been since August. If it does bring the lake up high enough, I'll be putting my boat on the trailer, driving away and never putting it back in Lake Hefner, and never paying OKC another dollar for slip rental. I'm not pretending I was lied to - my lease contract for the slip makes it clear that the lake's primary purpose is drinking water and they don't guarantee it's usability for any other purpose, but there are over a hundred boats out here, and at over 400 dollars a year for slip rental, that's not an entirely insignificant amount(even if it's a tiny percentage of the city budget) of money they're charging for something largely useless. If they plan to keep managing the lake like they have been, I think it's only reasonable to ask that they switch to a monthly slip rental plan so I can pay for it for the 4 to 6 months that it's actually useful and not when they've drained it to the point that the boats can't move.

For the record, I'm ALSO on the side of conservation. I've been saying for months that I'd rather be sailing than looking at green grass. I will support any conservation measures in the city. Water should have a cost that reflects it's actual supply and demand. Maybe the first 4 gallons per person per day should be cheap, but after that the price should go up drastically... this way you still allow someone to choose to use city water as they see fit, but you also make sure they're shouldering their portion of the burden if they're using water at a rate greater than the city can easily replenish, and you encourage people to make the choice (without taking away their right to choose) to gather their own rainwater for irrigation, or take other measures to lower their burden on the city water supply. I don't think I have a greater right to sail on the lake than another user has to water their grass. We're both doing something that brings joy to us, and neither one of us is doing something that cures cancer or saves whales. Now, I will say that my 'for my own pleasure' use of the water DOES leave it available for drinking while my neighbor's grass watering doesn't... but...

Lake Hefner used to be a bragging point for OKC... it used to be considered one of the top ten sailing lakes in the country. I recognize that OKC does have a lot of new things to brag about, and that's excellent, but we should still take pride in the things that we've been bragging about for decades too.


Art

[OKCisOK4me]

The Lake was built for flood control, irrigation, and some municipal water. If farmers here had chosen to irrigate from the North Canadian, where would OKC be now?

I will never understand why so many of you are determined to squander the resources you have. No one has tried to stop the water, all they have asked is to delay the release as long as possible, and give the Lake a chance to survive. You ignore the facts at your own peril.

I bet Al Gore's 'An Inconvenient Truth' is one of your favorite movies, huh?

[law]

I bet Al Gore's 'An Inconvenient Truth' is one of your favorite movies, huh?

Actually, no. I am not a global warming believer. This is simply a drought, and OK has had many of them.

[law]

When you depend on rain for your water, in times of drought, you should use less. OKC and dependent districts have increased water use while knowing the west was in a drought. I would think that Ms Slaughter as director of the OKCWT would be aware of the drought and as a responsible public official, would have warned residents of the coming problems.

Oklahoma Climatological Survey | U.S. Drought Monitor - Oklahoma

[TAlan CB]

Actually, no. I am not a global warming believer. This is simply a drought, and OK has had many of them.

Global Warming is a fact, not a theory. But, you are right, droughts of various lengths and severity have come and gone through the short history of Oklahoma. All of the lakes in Oklahoma are a testament to that. Other than better managing water collection in privates residences (store rain water, etc.), the collection and distribution of resources is being 'maxed out'. There are a few lakes in the Southeastern part of the state that could be utilized more effeciently, but otherwise it is how we use this resource that needs to be changed. Not watering excessively, drought tolerant plants, low flow showers, toilets etc. Wasteful habits need to change.
Even with Global warming, there are consequences we do not fully understand (some areas will get more rain, not less). It is how we manage, and or act, that is the real concern. If we see the source of our water in drought - like the west of OKC - then as you say we need to start acting accordingly - manage our resource better. Climate change - and weather pattern changes - are a constant in the recorded history of mankind. Whether it be the great drought that changed civilation in pre-columbian Americas, or the 'Little Ice Age' in Europe a few centuries ago, long-term climate can, and has changed. Those peoples willing to look at it and adjust as they need to will succeed, those who don't will fail. Time to invest in cisterns....

[mkjeeves]

After all, it is still a flood control lake, and federal taxpayers pay 75% of the expenses on that lake.

The taxpayers of Oklahoma City, other areas and Canton paid for:

The Lake was built for flood control, irrigation, and some municipal water.

Oklahoma City paid for the municipal water. I don't see where Canton paid for anything otherwise to feed their "fictional "water laden lifestyle"".

Concessionaires pay for the right to be on that lake.

With no guarantees from anyone the water will be there. As you said:

You ignore the facts at your own peril.

Between that and your other high horse and hypocritical postings like this:

You refuse to educate yourselves.

you aren't doing much to help your situation, IMO.

[law]

Sorry, I should have worded it differently. I meant you should find out more about your own water situation. Not Canton Lake's water situation.

[ZYX2]

I know it’s controversial….. but we probably need to take a hard look at cloud seeding.

No, no, no, just no.

[Jim Kyle]

Cloud seeding would be great -- if it worked. However the moisture has to be present in the clouds to start with, and the seeding can only trigger its release a bit sooner than it would happen if left to nature. That is, seeding over west Texas might release the rain there rather than letting it move on up to the Canton watershed before falling. And it might not; we tried it pretty consistently several decades ago, and found that it was less than 50% effective. OTOH, tribal rain dances seem to have had more consistent results!

[catch22]

Washing the car, scheduling picnics, securing golf tee-times, and scheduling the Arts Festival and State Fair all seem to be excellent at making it rain. Perhaps the Arts Festival needs to be moved to NW OK this spring?

[ljbab728]

You should do a little research. The inactive pool is EXACTLY that, INACTIVE!

Here's the definition: Dead or inactive storage refers to water in a reservoir that cannot be drained by gravity through a dam's outlet works, spillway or power plant intake and can only be pumped out. Dead storage allows sediments to settle which improves water quality

It is not available. You do not and cannot "OWN" it. NO ONE IS KEEPING ANYTHING FROM YOU! There is not enough water in the inactive pool to help you. If the inactive pool would keep the fish alive, there wouldn't be the same complaints. Everything I have told you is true. You will drain this lake to inactive, and without rains above Canton there will be no more from Canton for Hefner.


Conservation pool is 34.12% full. Pray for rain.

I don't need to do any research at all. I understand exactly what inactive means and it does not change my point in the least that you were exaggerating what you said. Please reread what I said to you. Even if it cannot be drained out or go over a spillway it is still water in the lake and has to be counted before you can say:

It is a basic math, since 1/3 is 33.3%, therefore Canton is almost 2/3rds empty.

Again, I'm not saying you should not have any concerns. I'm just saying that you are using incorrect information.

[law]

Just enough water for the dead fish to float in.

[Just the facts]

How many millions of gallons of water are just in the water pipes, toilet tanks, and hotwater heaters around OKC? How many miles of fire hydrant pipe are there and how many gallons does it take to fill them?

[mkjeeves]

I had business in Taloga today so I made a trip by the lake on the way back. Looks like tourism possibilities were impacted a long time before now. The swimming beach and campground at the NE end of the dam is several hundred yards from water and the boat ramp at the southwest end is pretty far from water. I didn't drive all the way around. (I understand the concerns voiced about further reductions in the water level killing the fish population.)

How long has it been since the lake was at the normal level for any length of time? (Whatever normal is, considering it's stated functions as flood control and water storage.)

[OKCisOK4me]

What's funny is that if you look at the "time travel" option on Google Earth and go back to 1995...Canton was lower then than it is now. I gotta guess law and Fuqua were mailing letters to the City of OKC way back then since the internet was a baby.

[MarkAFuqua]

What's funny is that if you look at the "time travel" option on Google Earth and go back to 1995...Canton was lower then than it is now. I gotta guess law and Fuqua were mailing letters to the City of OKC way back then since the internet was a baby.

I can't honestly tell exactly what your tone is because it's in type, but based on some of your past comments I assume you are trying your hand at being a comedian or poking fun at us and our situation. I can tell you that I don't see anything "funny" about this situation and I assure you that if it was your business, or your job or family affected by this, you wouldn't see anything funny about it either. You seem to only be interested in arguing and not solving or helping anything. You don't seem interested in truth or facts surrounding this situation. This is real life devastating stuff for a lot of people, and the insensitivity of your comments shows me where your heart is, and it isn't in making this situation any better. Someday this may directly affect you, maybe sooner than you think if you are one of the 200K people that depend on water from Hefner for your home. Then maybe you will be less interested in insulting LAW and I, and more interested in why you don't have any water as we warned you was coming. The lake may have been lower then, but it certainly wasn't as low in 95' as it's going to be when this water draw is complete. At the end of this release the lake will be at it's lowest level since 1951. All LAW and I are trying to accomplish, is to open the eyes of the people to how severe this situation is and that it could have been prevented or at least greatly postponed if the people in power would have done their jobs and educated the folks.

[jn1780]

Its lower today than when that image was taken. Pool elevation was 1605.99 on February 16, 1995. Today it is at 1604.81. I wish the data went back before November 94 because it was 1604.86 on the first day of November 94. This is probably close to the low point during the drought during this period of time. The lake rapidly recovered in the spring of 95.
Monthly Charts for Canton Lake

[MarkAFuqua]

I had business in Taloga today so I made a trip by the lake on the way back. Looks like tourism possibilities were impacted a long time before now. The swimming beach and campground at the NE end of the dam is several hundred yards from water and the boat ramp at the southwest end is pretty far from water. I didn't drive all the way around. (I understand the concerns voiced about further reductions in the water level killing the fish population.)

How long has it been since the lake was at the normal level for any length of time? (Whatever normal is, considering it's stated functions as flood control and water storage.)

I honestly can't answer that with certainty. I believe it's been a couple of years since all boat ramps were open. Currently there is only one open and it's soon to be closed. You can only get a shallow floating, light weight boat off of it now anyway. I think we were fairly full before the two 30,000 acre feet draws that happened in 2011. We never got enough rain out west to build any of that water back to the pool. With evaporation loss in the heat and wind it was an ugly summer.

I thank you for taking the time to view the lake and get a first hand look with your own eyes at our dire situation. I keep running into people from the city who think they are taking water from a "full" lake and they don't realize it will basically drain the lake to the bottom.

Tourism is down like you mention, but if they kill all the fish in the lake, it will be down for years and years.....with little hope for fishermen to return anytime in the near future....
Thanks again.

[mkjeeves]

Here's some panos of what it looked like around noon today. (34% or so full plus the inactive?) I would like to have gotten one of the swimming/camping area at the north end of the dam but there isn't a good place to pull off or stand at a good elevation.

mkjeeves's Photosynths - Photosynth

[jn1780]

I wonder how deep that "river" of water is leading to the dam. Canton doesn't seem like your the typical lake. Im use to the deepest part being right at the dam.

Edit: Probably shouldn't have put quotes around river. Its the North Canadian river.

[OKCisOK4me]

I can't honestly tell exactly what your tone is because it's in type, but based on some of your past comments I assume you are trying your hand at being a comedian or poking fun at us and our situation. I can tell you that I don't see anything "funny" about this situation and I assure you that if it was your business, or your job or family affected by this, you wouldn't see anything funny about it either. You seem to only be interested in arguing and not solving or helping anything. You don't seem interested in truth or facts surrounding this situation. This is real life devastating stuff for a lot of people, and the insensitivity of your comments shows me where your heart is, and it isn't in making this situation any better. Someday this may directly affect you, maybe sooner than you think if you are one of the 200K people that depend on water from Hefner for your home. Then maybe you will be less interested in insulting LAW and I, and more interested in why you don't have any water as we warned you was coming. The lake may have been lower then, but it certainly wasn't as low in 95' as it's going to be when this water draw is complete. At the end of this release the lake will be at it's lowest level since 1951. All LAW and I are trying to accomplish, is to open the eyes of the people to how severe this situation is and that it could have been prevented or at least greatly postponed if the people in power would have done their jobs and educated the folks.

Regardless of whatever my tone may be (and I was being serious about the Google Earth view), you have no right to assume that all of us here in OKC don't give a crap about your situation. You people started businesses in association with a lake that was created for flood control, contracted out to Enid, which chose not to use their water rights and then taken over by OKC. In all that time, was it not known by you that this day may come to pass? Was it not known by you that when you and your friends chose to base your lives off of the lake that there was a possibility that the largest city in the state could empty it? I mean, who's to blame?? Don't give us the guilt trip. You guys are the ones that chose the path you're on.