OKC Commuter Rail

[mugofbeer]

Dont get too excited. Rail takes many years and up-front tax collections. There will also be inevitable environmental and NIMBY lawsuits to settle. Then there will have to be the also-inevitable follow-up tax election because cost overruns and inflation would otherwise cause the outlying burbs to be skipped.

Now that I got the negativity out, I hope it works out flawlessly and they can get tons of Federal subsidies.

[Urbanized]

Legislative interference in 3...2...

[Urban Pioneer]

You do realize that the legislature virtually unanimously approved the legislation twice to enable this to move forward? Not saying that that couldn't change.

Also, yes mugofbeer, we are probably 8 - 12 years away from seeing a functional system. Planting seeds for the city of the future.

[Urbanized]

That was tongue-in-cheek, UP. Don't get worked up. I'm just imagining a few base-pandering legilsative ears perking up when they hear the words "federal subsidies." They also of course tend to have a problem with municipalities daring to practice self-determination.

[catch22]

That was tongue-in-cheek, UP. Don't get worked up. I'm just imagining a few base-pandering legilsative ears perking up when they hear the words "federal subsidies." They also of course tend to have a problem with municipalities daring to practice self-determination.

They also perk up when they hear "transit".

It's a huge talking point for some conservatives up here. I remember one politician running his campaign platform on "he opposed every light rail transit expansion to date." Not sure he won.

[Jesseda]

In moore the train stop would probably be at the station at central park. There will be plenty of parking right by the tracks and I believe the old train depot is suppose to be relocated there. It makes perfect sense now that the park is called the station. I bet this was the plan all along to have a working train stop there

[Tritone]

Certainly many know this: The old Santa Fe station (not the Oklahoma (electric) Railway) was moved to South Shields Blvd and is the office for a car dealership.

[Jesseda]

Certainly many know this: The old Santa Fe station (not the Oklahoma (electric) Railway) was moved to South Shields Blvd and is the office for a car dealership.

yes a lot of long time moore residence know that, the city was in talks of moving it to the station at central park. I don't know if the city currently leases it to the car dealership but it sounds like it.

[shawnw]

there's something distinctly tragic about an old train station being used as a car dealership

[Spartan]

You do realize that the legislature virtually unanimously approved the legislation twice to enable this to move forward? Not saying that that couldn't change.

Also, yes mugofbeer, we are probably 8 - 12 years away from seeing a functional system. Planting seeds for the city of the future.

Like urbanized, I didn't know that either. Thanks for that info.

I do think there is a remarkable trend of the state legislature "responding" to override OKC actions...

[Spartan]

yes a lot of long time moore residence know that, the city was in talks of moving it to the station at central park. I don't know if the city currently leases it to the car dealership but it sounds like it.

Sounds like a public works kind of solution...

[Plutonic Panda]

Commuter rail is one step closer to reality - Norman Transcript: Government

[Urbanized]

Like urbanized, I didn't know that either. Thanks for that info.

I do think there is a remarkable trend of the state legislature "responding" to override OKC actions...

I actually was aware, thanks to news coverage. My post was an opportunistic joke.

[Spartan]

Well feel free to keep 'em coming lol..

[baralheia]

I remembered mentioning this some time ago, but for the life of me I can't remember if I posted this or not. Apologies if this is a duplicate post! Months ago I was playing around with Google Maps and came up with my idea of what a commuter rail network in central Oklahoma could look like, using existing rail corridors. The lines are probably longer than revenue service would support, at least initially; I followed a similar model to the way Metra service in Chicago runs, connecting some more rural population centers into downtown. I also named the lines after predecessor railroads, with colors to match.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...-E&usp=sharing

[rte66man]

I remembered mentioning this some time ago, but for the life of me I can't remember if I posted this or not. Apologies if this is a duplicate post! Months ago I was playing around with Google Maps and came up with my idea of what a commuter rail network in central Oklahoma could look like, using existing rail corridors. The lines are probably longer than revenue service would support, at least initially; I followed a similar model to the way Metra service in Chicago runs, connecting some more rural population centers into downtown. I also named the lines after predecessor railroads, with colors to match.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...-E&usp=sharing

I agree in principle with your map but the one line that has the best chance of working is the one that would need the most work. The BNSF from Norman to Edmond is mostly single track. With the large number of freights already using the line, I can see little incentive for BNSF to spend the capital necessary to eliminate at-grade crossings, double track longer sections, etc.

[baralheia]

Though it would definitely improve efficiency, BNSF wouldn't necessarily need to go to double track (DT) or two main track (2MT) operation in order to enable commuter rail - and no grade crossings would have to be eliminated. Several of the lines that Metra runs over have significant sections that are single-track with more than half of their road crossings at grade. You would definitely need at least a siding in single-track areas for stations, however.

I have heard vague rumors that BNSF is thinking of going 2MT on the Red Rock Sub (the North-South BNSF mainline that we're discussing here) because of the level of freight traffic over the line, so if they decide to do that, it could help the RTA as well.

[HOT ROD]

Baralheia, I completely love your commuter rail route map and absolutely think it would be a huge hit. I too thought of the routing just as you have, but you figured out how to make the WRWA routing work by connecting it into Mustang and Tuttle.

I LOVE that you chose terminal stops at Purcell and Guthrie (instead of JUST Norman and Edmond) as you'd really capture the entire OKC metro by serving the CSA and not just the inner MSA. I also love how you tied in E OK county and Shawnee. Finally, I love your stops; nicely spaced and not too many since this is COMMUTER RAIL (not light rail or streetcar). Completely doable from a commute standpoint (trips an hour or less), anywhere in the metro to get downtown (or a metro suburb) using this system.

Kudos - get on the Oklahoma City Metro RTA quick!!!

[shawnw]

I suggest moving the will rogers bus transfer to Newcastle/MacArthur where it could more easily server all four important sites in area... Airport, Air Guard, Metro Tech, FAA... via 54th. Seems like a small distinction, but as a worker in this area I think the bus route would be more practical from this spot.

Probably could also server Hobby Lobby and OCCC by bus from here.

[catch22]

Commuter rail to the airport shouldn't be a priority. I don't even think it's worth having a stop. I think the stop should be moved west towards FAA like Shawn suggested.

You need frequency to the airport, and commuter rail can't provide that. And, ultimately you need the airport to be the terminus of its own line. You need out of town travelers to be able to see the train standing at the station, or else they will be confused and a little weary of the system and may opt to just rent a car at the airport. Also, a bus system to shuttle to the station creates a double transfer, adding more possibilities to miss a train. If commuter rail runs hourly, and the bus driver is in no hurry, he may end up missing the train and leaving people to wait an hour for the next commuter train.

Another advantage to having the line terminus at the airport is it gives people a chance to stow their luggage and find a seat before the train begins to move. And they (and their luggage) will have the first grab at seats. Boarding a train that is just stopping for a moment in the middle of its line, and is potentially full of passengers means added stress in trying to locate a seat and room for luggage. Not being at the terminus also means the possibility of someone boarding the opposite direction train.

We need to serve the airport right when it comes time to do so, and not a band aid attempt with commuter rail via bus transfer. We need frequent light rail or streetcar service on an airport dedicated line running down Reno from downtown, and down Meridian straight to the terminal.

[baralheia]

These are all good points, and the feedback is definitely appreciated! It's a fun mental exercise to try and plan these sorts of things out. I also had to take a few artistic liberties, primarily with the Rock Island Line, to allow the trains to get onto the BNSF viaduct and up to Santa Fe Station; that connection would require reconfiguring the support columns under Shields, as well as a bunch of dirtwork to enable the climb up to the viaduct. It would likely be an expensive connection to create but I don't think it would be completely impossible. Without that connection, the RI line would need to stop at Union Station, with no easy transfer to the other two lines.

My main inspiration for this layout (and my only real-world experience with commuter rail) is the Metra system in Chicago, which does offer service to O'Hare in much the same manner as I proposed here; the airport runs the shuttle buses to the O'Hare Transfer station on the North Central Service (NCS) line. Metra is generally able to provide 15-30 minute frequency to this station during the morning rush, and then 30 - 60 minute frequency during the rest of the day. The stop works quite well for Metra, but it is not the only mass transit option to get to O'Hare - The CTA has an 'L' station on the Blue Line that serves O'Hare. Both transit methods are effective for transportation to and from the airport.

Streetcar or light rail service directly to the airport would certainly be the ideal, and we should absolutely work towards that end - but a shared station for WRWA, FAA, MetroTech, and ANG would definitely be a useful and successful transit option for commuters. I tried to balance the location between the hotels and the neighborhoods to the north and east with the airport and FAA/MetroTech/ANG to the south and southwest, so that the stop would have far more uses than it's name would immediately suggest. Moving it down to MacArthur & Newcastle Rd would allow for more space for parking directly across the street, and get it closer to the Hobby Lobby campus, but it would be farther from the hotels and neighborhoods. I do agree that frequency could be an issue in our system, as our system likely would not have the ridership or available trainsets to enable such a high frequency; hourly service would probably be feasible, however.

As this whole exercise is merely conceptual, I laid the system out the way I thought it might work - though I do have my doubts that Tuttle, Purcell, and Noble would generate enough ridership for those stations to be economically feasible. Shawnee ridership would probably be high enough to subsidize the Choctaw, Harrah, and McLoud stations. In the connected suburbs, I chose station placement as close to downtown/main street as possible because those areas are typically the economic centers of smaller communities and leisure riders would be able to more easily get to shopping or restaurants. I also attempted (as much as possible, anyway) to place stops where there were existing stations and platforms; Purcell, for instance, would require little to no additional money to initiate service, as their existing platform is in good shape and currently serves AMTRAK trains.

[shawnw]

Technically there have already been public meetings where they had notional markers in likely stop locations both between Edmond/Norman and between downtown and MWC. Pretty sure that was an ACOG run thing at the time. It's been a couple years I think.

I remember they had us marking up the map if we though stops should be different or if the path of the line should be different.

[HOT ROD]

we may not need to 'start' with the route serving El Reno, Purcell, Guthrie, Tuttle, and Shawnee - but the long-term goal should be to fully connect the metro area and you can't leave out those cities as they are the fringe (and likely 'could' capture riders from outside of the metro). On this note, perhaps the Tuttle route should eventually go to Chickasaw (again, to fully connect the metro area).

All of those are cities that START/END the OKC metro area, so there should ideally be a stop eventually even though none of them (maybe save Shawnee) currently have the population to support the line by themselves.

[baralheia]

shawnw - If there's a publicly accessible map showing these proposed stops, that would definitely be awesome to see; makes me wonder how close my ideas are to what's really being proposed.

HOT ROD - No, I totally agree, and that's why I developed my routes as I did. This would be an example of a fully fleshed-out system, not what it would look like in the beginning. I didn't think about connecting Chickasha; As the crow flies, it's roughly the same distance from downtown OKC as Shawnee is - and it is part of the Oklahoma City MSA. If there was enough traffic to and from Chickasha, that could very well subsidize the Tuttle and/or Mustang stops, and maybe even a stop in Amber. The difficulty with a stop in Chickasha would be that the old Rock Island Depot is on the north-south Union Pacific line; there currently is no easy wye connection between these two rail lines to make this connection happen, but it would appear that building one would not be too involved. The depot was restored just over 15 years ago by the Chickasha Antique Auto Club; the building serves as their offices as well as a transportation museum, and I believe they are the current owners of the property. If they were agreeable to allowing the building to return to a transportation use, this would be a beautiful station and entrance to Chickasha; for commuters to and from OKC there is a sizable amount of clear property to the south that could be acquired for parking, as well.

[HOT ROD]

again, very well thought out plan!!!

Please attend, present, and if possible JOIN the ACOG/RTD. You're plans are spot on and you have done some great research into feasibility of your routes.