OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

[sgray]

See this? The New United-Contintental Logo: Flying a Little Too Close Together | Fast Company

This is a great article Mike! Food-for-thought: remember how Delta tilted their logo (on plane tails mostly) to combine the Northwest "compass pointer" and the Delta "widget"?

I was thinking, they could come up with a modern form of a globe and the tulip, somehow meshed together on the branding. PERHAPS only the outline of a globe, with no inner lines and the double "U" set partially inside of the globe???

Then they would have to work on that BLAH FONT! Certainly you all must agree that United has got the better font here?

I personally prefer United's plane colors to Continental's.

[venture]

Not sure how much I buy into the new Widget tail as a tip to Northwest. Granted Delta is ran by the old Northwest execs (before the set that was in place prior to and through the merger). However, that paint scheme was announced and in place prior to the merger agreement. I think deep down Northwest folks would like to think it was a salute to them, but really it is probably just an update to the Widget and a reversal of taking it off the tail. Now if they could just add some more paint to the Euro-trash white body. Eeesh. Of course, I also wouldn't mind seeing the big black noses back either. : )

[HOT ROD]

This is a great article Mike! Food-for-thought: remember how Delta tilted their logo (on plane tails mostly) to combine the Northwest "compass pointer" and the Delta "widget"?

I was thinking, they could come up with a modern form of a globe and the tulip, somehow meshed together on the branding. PERHAPS only the outline of a globe, with no inner lines and the double "U" set partially inside of the globe???

Then they would have to work on that BLAH FONT! Certainly you all must agree that United has got the better font here?

I personally prefer United's plane colors to Continental's.

I second. here here!

[sgray]

Not sure how much I buy into the new Widget tail as a tip to Northwest.

For those who still have their doubts, see below...and the merger was internally expected to happen before they even went public with it. When I worked there several years ago, we knew about it then and that was before the exit from bankruptcy, which is when the new branding took place.

[BigD Misey]

for those who know the innerworkings of airline industry...
What prevents OKC from actively seeking to be a Hub for an airline. What prevents airlines from choosing OKC?
Is it location? Proximity? Hazzards? Current facilities? Taxes?
Some Airlines prefer DFW for a centralized location, some choose Houston and Minneapolis for the same. Would you say that is true?
Conversely, would you say some airlines feel a 5 hr flight direct from LA to NY should have no lay-overs because of the time zones differential?
What plays into a decision to: A) be a hub city B) choose a city as a hub?

[venture]

For those who still have their doubts, see below...and the merger was internally expected to happen before they even went public with it. When I worked there several years ago, we knew about it then and that was before the exit from bankruptcy, which is when the new branding took place.

This should end roughly any thought that DL was tossing NW a bone in the new Widget design. Any Chance For A Return Of The "Red Tail"? — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net

[venture]

for those who know the innerworkings of airline industry...
What prevents OKC from actively seeking to be a Hub for an airline. What prevents airlines from choosing OKC?
Is it location? Proximity? Hazzards? Current facilities? Taxes?
Some Airlines prefer DFW for a centralized location, some choose Houston and Minneapolis for the same. Would you say that is true?
Conversely, would you say some airlines feel a 5 hr flight direct from LA to NY should have no lay-overs because of the time zones differential?
What plays into a decision to: A) be a hub city B) choose a city as a hub?

For one the airline industry is broke and has been. Hubs require a large amount of investment and originating traffic. OKC barely breaks 3M people a year. Cities like Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and St. Louis put through more than that and are being de-hubbed (by Delta, US Airways, and American respectively).

Location is probably the one thing OKC has going for it. Hazards? No more than Dallas or Kansas City or Denver. Current facilities of course can't handle a hub, but that would be addressed should the need arise. The terminal is no where near capacity right now.

I don't think it is the airline that says there should be stops en route. It is the passenger. This is why we see someone like Southwest continue to get away from their short hop network and do more long range flights (when they can).

The whole situation comes down to...OKC doesn't have the population to support a hub right now. The facilities can't support a hub. The economy can't support a hub. We are in the middle of some pretty extensive airline consolidation right now. AA started when they got TWA...now the St. Louis hub is going away. US Airways and America West were mashed together...Pittsburgh and Las Vegas hubs are gone. Delta picked up Northwest...Cincinnati hub is on the way out. Now Continental is essentially taking over United and we'll likely see some sort of consolidation there (Cleveland hub?).

We can't even fully support the service we have now, hence why the majority of everything is flown by an aircraft under 100 seats...where even 5-10 years ago it was the opposite. We need to support what we have now, get behind any new service we are offered, and do whatever we can to retain and grow.

[Kerry]

At least they didn't do something stupid like Continental-United Airlines.

Exxon + Mobile = ExxonMobile

Locheed + Martin Marietta = Lockheed Martin

Conoco and Phillips = ConocoPhillips

Colgate + Palmolive = Colgate Palmolive

Anheuser-Busch + InBev = Anheuser-Busch InBev

[SkyWestOKC]

venture hit the nail on the head. Location is a factor, but passenger numbers, with an emphasis on yield, is the driving factor.

Most successful hubs weren't built on a dime. They started out as profitable cities, the flights sold good. The airline added a few more flights, those flights began to fill and make money, more cities and flights were added, then it begins to grow exponentially because of connections.

Hubs aren't built off of connections, but local traffic. The Delta powerhouse of Atlanta is a testament to this. It's not the biggest city, but they had good traffic counts. With every added flight came more connections and more passengers. Any flights they add now should work (in watered down basic theory). But, all that started from local traffic.

[BigD Misey]

venture hit the nail on the head. Location is a factor, but passenger numbers, with an emphasis on yield, is the driving factor.

Most successful hubs weren't built on a dime. They started out as profitable cities, the flights sold good. The airline added a few more flights, those flights began to fill and make money, more cities and flights were added, then it begins to grow exponentially because of connections.

Hubs aren't built off of connections, but local traffic. The delta powerhouse of atlanta is a testament to this. It's not the biggest city, but they had good traffic counts. With every added flight came more connections and more passengers. Any flights they add now should work (in watered down basic theory). But, all that started from local traffic.

10-4

[sgray]

This should end roughly any thought that DL was tossing NW a bone in the new Widget design. Any Chance For A Return Of The "Red Tail"? — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net

How so? I don't see how the argument about printed company material proves anything. Who says the tilted widget could not and did not serve more than one purpose? Fact is, we already knew the merger was coming before the exit from bankruptcy, so there lies the possibility. Remember the STRONG internal/external "Keep Delta My Delta" campaign when another carrier tried to buy 'em out before the merger? I still have some of the free swag they dumped on us. They already had plans for the merger prior to the new branding and they kept NWA's exact same tail design, down to the angle and all, therefore it is possible and the printed material argument doesn't prove this not to be the case.

[sgray]

At least they didn't do something stupid like Continental-United Airlines.

While I see "stupid" embedded all over mergers today, what specifically are you referring to? The name being United and not ContinentalUnited?

The main thing I can;t digest so far is that nasty logo and crap font!

[chrisok]

The main thing I can;t digest so far is that nasty logo and crap font!

I think it looks good. (Although it'd look better if it said Continental)

[HOT ROD]

Im not so sure I buy into you guy's explanations.

I would like to see O&D numbers for these hub airports as that is the true guage as to whether pax are actually flying into those cities en mass OR if airlines are forcing people into those cities.

I'd say cities like NY, Chicago, LA, DC, and SF [in that order] will have the highest O&D, with Houston and other "Industry-Leader cities" coming next.

Im not saying ATL doesnt have the numbers, but does STL? does DIA?

I am certain MIA is purposedly built on being the latin american hub, SEA gets it's biggest numbers being Alaska and Hawaii's connection to the continental US, and PHX and SLC was purposedly set up as desert hubs and NOT based on O&D. MKE is essentially Chicago's 3rd airport and reliever to ORD.

Using your argument, then OMA should be next as a hub city - having relatively large O&D numbers despite having KC MCI so close.

I do agree, however, that OKC needs to put butts in the seats. Hopefully, as the city continues to grow and add, we can pick up from the loss of 'internet/conferencing' business, 9-11 industry conditions, and airline inefficiencies that have sent OKC's numbers plummeting.

Im also hopeful, that we could get 1000+ traveling OKC Thunder fanatics who fly to AWAY cities in support of the team. Don't laugh, but that could easily add 82,000+ to OKC's numbers and might justify 'special' large mainliners (ie 777, MD-11, 787) get moved into OKC for at least these occasions. If other cities' clubs also used their AWAY games against OKC for an excuse of their fans to travel to OKC, it could really add up as a nice contributor. Ditto that for conventions. .....

I must say I am a bit perplexed as to why there are no non-stop flights between OKC and ICT, OKC and TUL, and OKC and LIT. You would think this might represent an opportunity for someone using regional jets or props, as it is popular in other areas of the country having a number of close (but far enough) small airports. This is also one HUGE reason for SEA being quite large, as it is a feeder for many little airports in WA state, ID, and MT [Bellingham, Pasco, Spokane, even Ellingsburg in WA alone have flights] despite SEA being a small regional airline hub. SEA also gets a LOT of traffic from Vancouver, since it is cheaper to fly from SEA to US destinations than YVR (by contrast, it's cheaper to fly international from YVR than SEA, lol) - but that is an aside

[venture]

Personally...the United name is trash compared to Continental. The last bad press Continental had was when Frank Lorenzo was screwing over the airline world. Gordon Bethune rebuilt it and made it a brand to be proud. United...not so much.

[HOT ROD]

yes, the 'new' United logo is horrendous!

They should have kept (or move back) to the global icon that the United U tulip IS! United had done very well with branding and that should not have changed.

If anything, they could have kept the new blue/white tulip thing, but superimposed on it a greyed outline of continental's globe. The end result would look like United's tulip that is more BOLD than the original 'soft' design.

[venture]

Im not so sure I buy into you guy's explanations.

I would like to see O&D numbers for these hub airports as that is the true guage as to whether pax are actually flying into those cities en mass OR if airlines are forcing people into those cities.

I'd say cities like NY, Chicago, LA, DC, and SF [in that order] will have the highest O&D, with Houston and other "Industry-Leader cities" coming next.

Im not saying ATL doesnt have the numbers, but does STL? does DIA?

I guess it depends on how you want to look at it. Highest percentage of total passengers that are O&D (originating/terminating there) or higher number of pax overall.

New York (6 airports) has 23M pax or 44.6% of their overall total.
LA is next (4 airports) with 18.9M and 54.5%.
Chicago (2 airports) with 15.7M and 40%.
Miami (3 airports) with 14.4M and 46%.
Las Vegas with 13M and 65.5% - note how high they are in O&D, but yeild can't support a hub unless it is a low yield based hub with Allegiant or Southwest.

The rest of the order is SFO (12.4M, 56%), MCO (12.3M, 67%), DFW (10.7M, 34%), ATL (10.2M, 23.8%), PHX (9.7M, 52%), DEN (9.7M, 40%), WAS (IAD & DCA - 9.5M, 48%), BOS (8M, 67%), SEA (7.8M, 53%), PHL (7.5M, 51%), TPA (7M, 75%), HOU/IAH (7M, 30%), BWI (7M, 70%), SAN (6.5M, 80%), MSP (6.2M, 39%), DTW (6M, 38%), SLC (4M, 41%), STL (4M, 65%)....other hubs...CLT (3.5M, 20%), BNA (3M, 70%), MKE (2.2M, 64%), CLE (2M, 45%), CVG (1.4M, 27%), and MEM (1.3M, 27%).

So specifically...ATL has a lower percentage of O&D pax but it has one of the most extensive connecting hubs in the nation. CLT is there as well. STL...vast majority of its traffic is O&D. DEN...about 40%.

I am certain MIA is purposedly built on being the latin american hub, SEA gets it's biggest numbers being Alaska and Hawaii's connection to the continental US, and PHX and SLC was purposedly set up as desert hubs and NOT based on O&D. MKE is essentially Chicago's 3rd airport and reliever to ORD.

MIA is roughly half O&D and half connecting through the three regional airports. SEA is favored by local O&D, PHX the same, and SLC is a bit weaker. However, all have decent O&D numbers. MKE in and of itself has a strong O&D base with almost 2/3rds of the traffic there as O&D and not connecting.

Using your argument, then OMA should be next as a hub city - having relatively large O&D numbers despite having KC MCI so close.

You are completely missing the point. O&D is an important and critical factor...it is not THE ONLY factor that you are making it out to be.

Im also hopeful, that we could get 1000+ traveling OKC Thunder fanatics who fly to AWAY cities in support of the team. Don't laugh, but that could easily add 82,000+ to OKC's numbers and might justify 'special' large mainliners (ie 777, MD-11, 787) get moved into OKC for at least these occasions. If other cities' clubs also used their AWAY games against OKC for an excuse of their fans to travel to OKC, it could really add up as a nice contributor. Ditto that for conventions. .....

About the only time we'll see widebody metal in OKC is 1) diversions from DFW, 2) OU bowl game traffic, or 3) cargo. I'm not sure NBA teams have a large traveling fan base due to tickets probably not being set aside for the visiting team.

I must say I am a bit perplexed as to why there are no non-stop flights between OKC and ICT, OKC and TUL, and OKC and LIT. You would think this might represent an opportunity for someone using regional jets or props, as it is popular in other areas of the country having a number of close (but far enough) small airports. This is also one HUGE reason for SEA being quite large, as it is a feeder for many little airports in WA state, ID, and MT [Bellingham, Pasco, Spokane, even Ellingsburg in WA alone have flights] despite SEA being a small regional airline hub. SEA also gets a LOT of traffic from Vancouver, since it is cheaper to fly from SEA to US destinations than YVR (by contrast, it's cheaper to fly international from YVR than SEA, lol) - but that is an aside

I think we could see a regional network like what Horizon has done in the Pacific Northwest work here. However, it would have to be properly managed. Great Plains was the last attempt and they got stupid. I doubt Delta carried much traffic between OKC and TUL when they had the daily flight, but I could probably research that. I can see a regional working here though using a 30-50 seat prop to cities around the southern plains to feed into OKC...at provide connections between business markets. RJs won't work right now due to fuel costs...but Dork 328s, Dash 8s, Saabs, etc...could all make it work. I would also think that pushing to get EAS cities like Enid, Ponca, etc service directed here (even though I think it is all dead right now) could work.

I've started researching such a setup, but not here in Oklahoma. However, if something every comes of it with the people I'm working on it with...I definitely would look to OKC for some opportunity.

[HOT ROD]

thanks for that synopsis Venture, it is just as I figured.

also, let's get one thing straight, I am NOT the one advocating that Hubs were established due to significant O&D - on the contrary, I am arguing that hubs established due to civic progress and/or airlines wanting those hubs to be there. I also argued that the ONLY cities that had significant O&D that has led to hub status have been Chicago, New York area, SF and DC areas - mainly because those cities always have O&D traffic, so it only made sence to start connections. ATL and DFW/DEN, those are connecting airports who were established as such. SEA is a regional connecting airport.

Your numbers more or less substantiate this.

[BigD Misey]

I guess Hot Rod is skirting my question:

Let's say OKC aquires a little more of a corporate presence in the next couple of years. Naturally the demand will rise...not nearly as much as a Houston or Dallas, but demand enough to schedule current gates to a high percentage. Could OKC literally pursue a small airline outfit (for instance Sun Country Airlines) and include plans in a modified Maps program, to lure the airlines to OKC. The Maps program would generate revenue for the new wing addition and an agreement for 10 years min established with the airline. The benefits to the airline would be:
Since it is largely to bring traffic to the carribean, the planes will not have to travel all the way up to Minnesota. They would not have to spend what they would at say a DFW or Atlanta and the delays would be minimized since they would not have to fly out of a large hub.
I guess i'm curious...why Minnesota? Did the airline seek THEM out? Or did the city pursue them? Why would they go so far north? Why not further south, closer to the Carribean? I would think this would be a HUGE advantage for OKC if the commitment was there and they actively advertised this advantage.

Just trying to work it out in my mind. Sorry.

[venture]

Just a side note. Sun Country has their roots in Minneapolis. They were founded originally to serve MLT Vacations which was based in the Twin Cities. They were a charter airline that evolved into offering a limited number of schedule destinations. They didn't do the full transformation like ATA did, but pretty close. A lot of airline hubs/bases stem from past history with that city or the leadership of the company having connections there. Unfortunately OKC's last real connection to any airline (not including Great Plains) died with Braniff.

[SkyWestOKC]

April 2010 stats are out. This compares April 2010 to April 2009. Not the month before.

Operations (landing, takeoff, pass through the Tower airspace, touch and go, etc.) were up 11.02%.

Passengers were up 6.39%

Freight was up 1.91%

Wiley Post Operations were up 15.64%.

For the year, passengers were up 0.05%.

Overall, a good month, hopefully when May's stats become available in the coming month, we will begin to see a trend of upward movement.

http://flyokc.com/releases%5CApril%2010%20Activity.pdf

[venture]

Wiley Post will probably see a bit of a decline coming up in July when the State moves all operations to Westheimer Airport in Norman. Not sure how much of the traffic they account for there, but might make a bit of a dent.

[HOT ROD]

why is this happening?

Isn't Wiley more convenient?

[OUman]

^To reduce costs. $4,000/month at OUN compared to $15,300/month at PWA (and more space at OUN) was the deciding factor. This is a savings of taxpayer dollars after all.

Source: State planes to call Norman skies home University The Norman Transcript

OUN has been getting more business jets/turbprops lately. I've seen some Citations taking off and landing there this week. Although the biggest plane ever to land there that I know of has been a Dornier 328 turboprop that came in and out a few years back. That's a 32-seat high-winged plane.

On the subject of OKC, good news. Hope the trend does indeed continue. I'll be flying to Houston next month, flying out in the evning hours for the first time, should be interesting to see how busy the terminal is then.

[venture]

I think OUN actually had in an Embraer Legacy (ERJ-135) before.

Yeah, the state is going to see some pretty huge savings from this move. It will be interesting to see how much more traffic makes the move to OUN from OKC or PWA. Plenty of room to grow at OUN yet and they can probably extend 17/35 further south if they want to try to get some of the larger business jet traffic. It would probably also be a nice thing for OU (at least the basketball team) to have their chartered aircraft go into OUN instead of OKC. Foobtball charters won't be able to happen because the runway widths are too narrow...and i'm sure the foundation of the runway and taxiways can't support the weight of a 757/737 size aircraft.

Though I think people at OKC would get a little steamed if another airport was viable for commercial traffic at a lower costs. :-P