Boardwalk at Bricktown / Dream Hotel

[BoulderSooner]

Yes, they are probably done. But they still have yet to submit any documents to the City Council for final approval. That has to be done before building permits are filed. It was my understanding when they presented to the Planning Commission a year ago, that the PC diverted to City Council on final approval on some of the design issues.

And not sure if they are wanting TIF?

i don't believe they can get TIF for the hotel

[Pete]

Yes, they are probably done. But they still have yet to submit any documents to the City Council for final approval. That has to be done before building permits are filed. It was my understanding when they presented to the Planning Commission a year ago, that the PC diverted to City Council on final approval on some of the design issues.

And not sure if they are wanting TIF?

This would have to go through design review, then city council. They also have to file for building permits and go through that process to get approved.

And hotels near downtown aren't eligible for TIF due to the city's agreement with the Omni.

The next thing we'll probably see is the final design submitted for approval.

[HOT ROD]

i don't believe they can get TIF for the hotel

True, but they probably could for the garage + pond courtyard + residential tower. I believe the garage will be a substructure under the entire development (noice if true), which (correct me if Im wrong Pete) would qualify them for TIF despite the two add'l hotel towers.

Will be interesting to see how this will play out. I wonder if the city could get a renegotiation with OMNI to partner on part of the COX site in exchange for a revision of their agreement - hasn't the OKC Omni vastly exceeded expectations which were the reason for the restrictive TIF in the first place?

[G.Walker]

I agree, the whole hotel TIF ban for other hotels is not really good. Especially when we need larger hotels to build in the area. Especially if we need to attract an All-Star game, or other major sporting events, etc.

[chssooner]

If TIFs are out, then look at other incentives or subsidies. TIFs aren't the only option available.

[Pete]

If TIFs are out, then look at other incentives or subsidies. TIFs aren't the only option available.

What other incentives and subsidies?

[ABryant]

They know some dude who likes to hide behind the bushes for fun. He has their tiff.

[ABryant]

G. Rainey Williams has a plan for a fabulous idea.

[chssooner]

What other incentives and subsidies?

I guess property tax rebates or just flat-out deferrals (same church, different pew). If OKC has limited its options to solely TIFs, then they are batting with a broken bat.

[Pete]

TIF is property tax rebates and deferrals.

[chssooner]

TIF is property tax rebates and deferrals.

But those are based on sales tax generated, right?

I think direct rebates would be a good idea. Just seems weird that TIfs are the only thing available. Especially since the city screwed themselves on the Omni deal.

[Pete]

But those are based on sales tax generated, right?

I think direct rebates would be a good idea. Just seems weird that TIfs are the only thing available. Especially since the city screwed themselves on the Omni deal.

No, TIF is all based on property tax.

We sold our souls to the Omni in many ways.

[BoulderSooner]

Especially since the city screwed themselves on the Omni deal.

what? in what way?

[chssooner]

what? in what way?

Because now they can't offer anything to incentivize subsidize further hotel development downtown. Anytime you tie your own damn hands behind your back, you have screwed yourself.

[Richard at Remax]

^ I could be mistaken but I don't think not having incentives stopped the Renaissance or the Dreams project from moving forward

[Urbanized]

PLENTY of hotel development has already happened downtown without significant subsidy. Overbuild is also a legitimate concern in the hotel industry. It’s a delicate ecosystem. Room rates should remain reasonably high to maintain room tax and other benefits that come from being an in-demand market.

I’m typically a stout defender of BID usage when I’m posting in this forum, but I think the deal struck to gain a blockable number of what would otherwise be market-surplus rooms in the Omni was very appropriate in order to properly ensure success of the convention center.

If the actual market demand is there, new hotels will follow. They won’t need TIF. Also, by not directing it to new hotels - that don’t require TIF but would just LIKE to have it - said TIF could be better directed at other district-benefitting projects.

Finally, TIF can still be used toward the Dream project, provided the projected housing makes the final cut.

[chssooner]

Sorry for derailing. Didn't intend for that. I was simply saying that it could end up killing a project by them being so betrothed to the Omni. Maybe, and hopefully, not this one, as hotel and housing as re needed, especially with a new arena coming in.

But with how long it has been since any in-depth updates from the developers, who honestly knows where this one stands.

[onthestrip]

We got a new full service hotel in the Renaissance without TIF. Not sure why everything has to have a TIF to happen. Sometimes it may be necessary, but sometimes its an unnecessary giveaway and not letting the free market do its thing.

Its not a good thing when some land owner puts a big price on their land and then tells prospective buyers and developers "sure its a high asking price but you can go to the city and get TIF money."

[Southsider2]

We got a new full service hotel in the Renaissance without TIF. Not sure why everything has to have a TIF to happen. Sometimes it may be necessary, but sometimes its an unnecessary giveaway and not letting the free market do its thing.

Its not a good thing when some land owner puts a big price on their land and then tells prospective buyers and developers "sure its a high asking price but you can go to the city and get TIF money."

You make good points, I think it has mostly to do with the overall scale of the development. The Renaissance was done beautifully but at the end of the day, it's a 182 +/- room hotel. The proposed Dream/Unscripted/Condo tower is almost double in hotel rooms and has an additional condo tower. Capital required and risk is much higher for the Dream development.

[Urbanized]

You make good points, I think it has mostly to do with the overall scale of the development. The Renaissance was done beautifully but at the end of the day, it's a 182 +/- room hotel. The proposed Dream/Unscripted/Condo tower is almost double in hotel rooms and has an additional condo tower. Capital required and risk is much higher for the Dream development.

And yet, if any portion of this project is scaled back it is most likely to be the housing component. That should tell you all you need to know about which types of projects actually NEED TIF, and which do not.

[Pete]

And yet, if any portion of this project is scaled back it is most likely to be the housing component. That should tell you all you need to know about which types of projects actually NEED TIF, and which do not.

Do you think it's a good use of public funds to subsidize the sale of expensive private homes?

[catcherinthewry]

Do you think it's a good use of public funds to subsidize the sale of expensive private homes?

Like Wheeler District?

[G.Walker]

The point I was trying to make was that no TIF hinders large hotel development in the immediate area. Yes we possibly have Dream, and the new Renaissance is nice.

But I was referring to larger 4-5 star hotels, with 500+ rooms like the Omni. It will be very hard to get a large signature brand like JW Marriot, Grand Hyatt, W Hotels, or dare I say Ritz, without some type of TIF incentive or public subsidy.

[Pete]

Like Wheeler District?

Can't unring that bell and it's very different from what is being proposed here.

What's the worst case? The hotels get built without the condos? That would not be a huge loss.

BTW, Hogan & Co. already got a sweetheart deal from the city on this property to begin with.

[catcherinthewry]

For the record, I don't support the use of public funds to subsidize the sale of of expensive private homes in either case.