Electric Vehicles

[Pete]

As is probably obvious, I have always loved cars and I've been trying to get my head around this rapid change.

I really, really want an EV but the timing is not quite right for me, mainly because I'm a single-car household. But also because things are so rapidly evolving I know if I bought something now I'd really regret it in just a few years.

Carmakers like Volvo are starting to offer subscription models of all types and that idea appeals to me, although I've never even leased a car. It's a smart way of enticing people like me who are worried about some great tech stride making a newly-purchased model obsolete.

If you think about it, it's amazing it's taken this long for there to be such rapid change in cars. Apart from some new electronics that have really only come about in the last 10 years, not much has changed in a very long time: you go to a car dealer, usually have to deal with some guy that is trying to rip you off, you spend a fortune on interest on a new car loan (where they really make their money), and drive around in a big metal box that burns gasoline.

Every part of the equation is changing right before our eyes.

[David]

To be entirely fair, the multi-family housing question is a big part of what would stop me from switching to an EV as things stand now when I consider the setup of the condo complex I live in. We'll see what happens in the future though, and for the time being I am pretty satisfied with the mileage I get in my Honda Accord hybrid.

Pie in the sky I am hopeful for fuel cell cars combined with enough advances in green hydrogen that that would be an option for those without a good charging situation.

[Bill Robertson]

Man, as a car nut, and someone who has raced for 20+ years and owns multiple muscle cars, this has been a hard reality to accept.

I hear you. I'm coming around slowly to the idea that EVs can be as good or better. But my biggest wonder, based on my experience and bias, is if there's a time that ICEs just don't exist will things like sprint cars just go away. For EVs to work on dirt they're going to have to figure out a way to keep the HP but control the massive torque that EVs produce.

[Pete]

There are some everyday, drive-to-work, 4-door EVs that are already hitting 0-60 well under 3 seconds.

The fastest car I've ever owned was a Porsche Boxster S that was just under 5 seconds to that speed and I can't imagine doing it faster... Let alone roughly *half* the time and in a car that weighs twice as much.

And they are just getting started. All types of new possibilities in steering, cornering, and stopping not to mention automation.

Really, the engines and battery packs can be developed by anyone and then the automakers can continue to work on every other area of engineering to make their products better, cheaper, safer and more unique and beautiful.

[Just the facts]

I live in an apartment building with a 4 story parking garage and about 400 apartments. Am I expecting my complex to install charging stations to accommodate 600 cars charging all at the same time?

[jedicurt]

I live in an apartment building with a 4 story parking garage and about 400 apartments. Am I expecting my complex to install charging stations to accommodate 600 cars charging all at the same time?

no. but i do see all of these new gas stations that are being built with restaurants in such in them being upset in a few years when they realize they should have put in charging stations that would have kept people there long enough to eat. not everyone will be charging, or able to charge overnight. and we shouldn't expect that. infact, we should discourage it as much as we can. that should be spaced out during the day, if able to. many companies even hear in oklahoma are already installing ev chargers in their parking lots. i feel that will become the norm for many of them going forward.

[Bill Robertson]

I live in an apartment building with a 4 story parking garage and about 400 apartments. Am I expecting my complex to install charging stations to accommodate 600 cars charging all at the same time?

The major metro areas of California have had to figure out many things over the years to handle the density that they have. I'm pretty sure they'll somehow figure this out too.

[Just the facts]

I just have a difficult time believing that a lot of people are going to be happy to organize their life around charging their cars. The wife and I have a hard enough time trying to figure out where we want to eat, now we have to throw charging availability into the mix?

[jedicurt]

I just have a difficult time believing that a lot of people are going to be happy to organize their life around charging their cars. The wife and I have a hard enough time trying to figure out where we want to eat, now we have to throw charging availability into the mix?

you are assuming that charging options are going to stay as sparse as they currently are. like everyone is just going to be forced against their will to switch to EV's and there will still only be like 5 charging locations in OKC.

[Pete]

Unless you are in the habit of driving several hundred miles a day, charging at home will be infinitely easier than having to drive to a gas station.

I imagine that apartments and even employers will be making charging stations available as an inducement as a competitive advantage.

Europe, Asia, and just about everywhere else are going to have to figure all this out long before the U.S. Americans always seem to think only in our terms, and the way we live is definitely different than the rest of the world.

[jn1780]

Unless you are in the habit of driving several hundred miles a day, charging at home will be infinitely easier than having to drive to a gas station.

I imagine that apartments and even employers will be making charging stations available as an inducement as a competitive advantage.

Europe, Asia, and just about everywhere else are going to have to figure all this out long before the U.S. Americans always seem to think only in our terms, and the way we live is definitely different than the rest of the world.

They never adopted the same level of car culture to begin with. That's the whole point, you might as well live a more urban lifestyle. It will be a huge cost to covert from ICE car culture to electric car culture. Might as well redevelop to be more urban.

[Pete]

BTW, the most American of car companies (Ford & GM) both sell more vehicles outside the U.S. than in it. In fact, Toyota sells more vehicles in the states than Ford.

The U.S. represents a small percentage of global car sales and that number is shrinking all the time.

[Pete]

They never adopted the same level of car culture to begin with. That's the whole point, you might as well live a more urban lifestyle. It will be a huge cost to covert from ICE car culture to electric car culture. Might as well redevelop to be more urban.

But they still have millions and millions of cars and far more density.

[Pete]

BTW, Kia/Hyundai/Genesis is the traditional carmaker that is really kicking tail in the EV market. For that matter, they are doing the same in ICE world.

And they have scores of new EVs lined up and ready to roll out.

Previous innovators like Honda and Toyota seem to be way behind; probably even below Ford and GM.

And Tesla has proven that a startup can come out of nowhere and quickly sell a ton of cars. I'm really interested to see what tech companies like Apple do. The Sony/Honda partnership might be a great future business model.


I'm going to have to buy a new car soon but am overwhelmed with options and change, particularly because I tend to keep my cars for a long time. In June, I will have had my current vehicle for 20 years and truthfully, I could easily keep it for quite a while longer -- and just may.

[stlokc]

We're with you, Pete.

My car (Infiniti) is 4 years old. It's a traditional ICE car. It's in great shape, it's not going somewhere for a good long while. My wife, on the other hand, has a Lexus SUV. It's about 10-12 years old with way north of 100K miles. Realistically we are probably only a year or two from a replacement. She is dying for an EV. But she has said to me, as bad as she is starting to want a car, she really might advocate putting off the purchase for a little extra time to see how quickly the EV infrastructure is built. When you're making a purchase that is realistically a 10+ year decision, you have to "think ahead" a little bit. This decade is going to be one of transition for a lot of people, I predict.

[Swake]

As for people in multi-family housing, what will happen with them for transportation. My company is based in San Jose and the office there has charging stations for employees and also pays for mass transit monthly passes for employees.

[Pete]

As for people in multi-family housing, what will happen with them for transportation. My company is based in San Jose and the office there has charging stations for employees and also pays for mass transit monthly passes for employees.

When I worked in downtown L.A., my company paid for parking for most employees. They also offered a generous credit towards mass transit as an alternative; more than they paid for a parking spot. It's common in big cities and used as a perk in recruiting and retention.


Like all things, the world will adjust to all the changes on the horizon. There is so much money at stake that the competitive market will drive tons of innovative ideas.

I mentioned on another thread, Germany is already working on providing embedded charging on their highways... Think about how that would completely change everything! There are going to be a ton of incredible things that happen that we can't even dream up. Right now you have people all over the world cooking up the New New Thing (title of my favorite book about the Silicon Valley).

[PaddyShack]

I just hope we don't go 100% EV only in new line ups in my life time. I think an ICE will always be more "fun" to drive than an EV. I have thought of an EV as my commuter, but most of my commute is highway, and so I don't get the benefits of regenerative charging by constantly stopping at traffic lights. So, I am thinking I would have to top up while at work. Plus, EVs need to have better protection in freezing temperatures. I just don't see why people want to go all in, there should be a variety for everyone to have what they want/need. People should not be made out as sinners or less than for wanting to put around on dino fuel.

[PaddyShack]

Plus, the whole companies holding patents on their tech which makes it more difficult for me to wrench on my own vehicle scares me. If I am going to buy something, I want to own it and I want to be able to keep it serviced for as long as I want, not for however long a given company says. The issues farmers have with John Deere and all of the tech on farm equipment is scary as well as the policies that Porsche has in place that barr owners from even touching the engine bays is absolutely ridiculous. I own the car, I get to do with it as I want.

[Swake]

Plus, the whole companies holding patents on their tech which makes it more difficult for me to wrench on my own vehicle scares me. If I am going to buy something, I want to own it and I want to be able to keep it serviced for as long as I want, not for however long a given company says. The issues farmers have with John Deere and all of the tech on farm equipment is scary as well as the policies that Porsche has in place that barr owners from even touching the engine bays is absolutely ridiculous. I own the car, I get to do with it as I want.

EVs have very little needed maintenance. It's not the same at all.

[Pete]

Plus, the whole companies holding patents on their tech which makes it more difficult for me to wrench on my own vehicle scares me. If I am going to buy something, I want to own it and I want to be able to keep it serviced for as long as I want, not for however long a given company says. The issues farmers have with John Deere and all of the tech on farm equipment is scary as well as the policies that Porsche has in place that barr owners from even touching the engine bays is absolutely ridiculous. I own the car, I get to do with it as I want.

It's just a warranty issue; you can always do what you want, you just may void your warranty. Your choice.

[TheTravellers]

I just hope we don't go 100% EV only in new line ups in my life time. I think an ICE will always be more "fun" to drive than an EV. I have thought of an EV as my commuter, but most of my commute is highway, and so I don't get the benefits of regenerative charging by constantly stopping at traffic lights. So, I am thinking I would have to top up while at work. Plus, EVs need to have better protection in freezing temperatures. I just don't see why people want to go all in, there should be a variety for everyone to have what they want/need. People should not be made out as sinners or less than for wanting to put around on dino fuel.

Have you ever actually driven an EV? My MINI Cooper SE is *way* more "fun" to drive than my 2007 Honda Civic was (albeit they're two different types of car), and it can actually be dangerous in Sport mode if you're not careful. As far as maintenance, there is literally nothing to do for service - my first service is 2 years out, and the only thing I need to check until then is pretty much windshield wiper fluid (I think the only thing that might need attention *might* be the brake pads). Charging convenience is great for me - plug it in at home to my level 2 charger, and I'm done in 45 minutes (from empty). Won't take it on long trips due to the small battery size/range (120 miles), but for daily use, it works perfectly fine and easier since there's no gas station I have to deal with. Cost is the same as the ICE MINI Cooper due to the tax credit, but that's apparently changing now (I bought in 2022), so in this case, the EV doesn't have a higher cost to break even with, so it doesn't have to be "better", even though it is.

[Just the facts]

Just for fun. In what year does EV sales exceed ICE sales in the US?

[jedicurt]

Just for fun. In what year does EV sales exceed ICE sales in the US?

i'm going to say 2030. assuming we are only talking new car sales

[Just the facts]

40% of all US EV sales are in California. If the EV market is going to surpass ICE sales nationwide in the next 7 years someone else better start buying them soon. Even at 40% of all EV sales they still only account for 12% of new cars sold in California. Time will tell but EVs are going to be hard pressed to surpass the 50% mark nationwide in 7 years when they are still at 12% in their best market. Of course, by banning new car sales the percentage will increase even if it results in fewer actual vehicles being sold.