Lake Hefner at record low water levels, when will city buy Canton water?

[Achilleslastand]

Im sure our citys fathers think as long as theres water in the north canadian er i mean oklahoma and the years are green in gallardia and NH we are still a "big league city".

[C_M_25]

What's truly foolish (for the very reasons you mention above) is a growing and expanding city continuing to rely on a surface lake in the arid region of NW OK for their "drinking water"..... they should have been looking for other alternatives for those 200K people in NW OKC a long time ago. Then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on that one. However, if I understand this thread correctly, it seems that OKC has been working a deal with Sardis Lake, correct? If that is the case, then we shouldn't be relying on water from NW OKC anymore. I mean, that place used to be an active sand dune field!! OKC's water needs to come from Southeast/Eastern Oklahoma from here on out.

Now, your counterpart is making an argument that this lake benefits more people in NW Oklahoma because of tourism and general visits. However, relying on lake that will ultimately disappear in an exceptional drought for income is fine, but you have to understand that that lake will not be there indefinitely. Also, which is more important: holding on to that water for recreational use and tourism, or using that water for drinking water? Sure some idiots out there like to water their yards in the winter for some unknown reason, but the majority of that water is used for drinking. So, that water has a useful purpose. I'm sorry that recreation revenue is going to be down this year, but if you want to live next to a full lake and take part in water sports/fishing, you should probably move further east to an area that gets more water.

[Achilleslastand]

Edited..........

[Achilleslastand]

Im sure our city fathers think as long as theres water in the north canadian er i mean oklahoma river and the yards are green in gallardia and NH we are still a "big league city".

[jn1780]

I don't necessarily disagree with you on that one. However, if I understand this thread correctly, it seems that OKC has been working a deal with Sardis Lake, correct? If that is the case, then we shouldn't be relying on water from NW OKC anymore. I mean, that place used to be an active sand dune field!! OKC's water needs to come from Southeast/Eastern Oklahoma from here on out.

Now, your counterpart is making an argument that this lake benefits more people in NW Oklahoma because of tourism and general visits. However, relying on lake that will ultimately disappear in an exceptional drought for income is fine, but you have to understand that that lake will not be there indefinitely. Also, which is more important: holding on to that water for recreational use and tourism, or using that water for drinking water? Sure some idiots out there like to water their yards in the winter for some unknown reason, but the majority of that water is used for drinking. So, that water has a useful purpose. I'm sorry that recreation revenue is going to be down this year, but if you want to live next to a full lake and take part in water sports/fishing, you should probably move further east to an area that gets more water.

Well, not really. Define "drinking water", very little of the water is physically used for drinking. Hefner would be have water for years and years if that was the case.

[jn1780]

Looks like the water from Canton is here.


Long walk to where it drains into the lake.

[mkjeeves]

OKC has a landscape ordinance that requires many businesses (almost any newly developed since it went into place years ago) to have a certain amount of green space with shrubs, trees and a way to irrigate them. So it will be quite expensive when and if the time comes to let all that die and then plant it back at some time in the future. I don't imagine it's likely that ordinance is going away any time soon but the water people need to have a discussion with the development people if drought becomes the norm. It's Catch 22 when the city requires the green and then as the prevailing water provider, either don't or can't provide the water to keep it alive.

I'm sure some of the ordinance applies to homes too. We make no attempt to keep our yard watered, gave up on that a long time ago. We did install a sprinkler system in the beds around the house where we spent several thousand dollars replanting shrubs along with making other outside improvements and we try to keep those plants alive. Trees and shrubs are not cheap. (We had a well at one time and I'm considering drilling another if we have a dry spring. We also lost a large and very old tree last year, due to the drought we think.)

[CaptDave]

I don't think conservation is a political trait. If it were, the clearly NOT conservative Midtowner would not vow to have the best damned pet lawn in his 'hood. If it were and it leaned the way you indicated,, the apparently conservative RadMod wouldn't repeatedly advocate for xeriscaping. I think we either have weak-willed leaders or they have an ulterior motive to reach a crisis point about the time the Sardis matter reaches a court of law.

You ask a successful rancher or farmer (and there are LOTS of them in this oh so very red state) if they should squander the natural resources available to them, and they'll pull out their concealed AR-15 (WTF?), shoot you repeatedly and quickly in the lower leg and tell you that you should water their crops with your blood as you run off their land, hopefully having learned your lesson that we should conserve natural resources (well, water, at least).

Just a play on words Dubya......I forgot this though ->

[C_M_25]

One word:

Xeriscaping!! Everyone should do this!

[CuatrodeMayo]

Xeriscaping

"like"

[OKCisOK4me]

Looks like the water from Canton is here.


Long walk to where it drains into the lake.

I'm totally confused since they said it would take "two weeks" to flow here. Being that the news outlets totally screwed over the most of the information, maybe they meant two days, lol.

[Bellaboo]

I'm totally confused since they said it would take "two weeks" to flow here. Being that the news outlets totally screwed over the most of the information, maybe they meant two days, lol.

In years past it's taken 4 days.

[mkjeeves]

I'm totally confused since they said it would take "two weeks" to flow here. Being that the news outlets totally screwed over the most of the information, maybe they meant two days, lol.

Two days for the first flow to show up and then two weeks of flow before it's done.

[ljbab728]

Here is the Corps Canton Lake current status page including release information. It is a basic math, since 1/3 is 33.3%, therefore Canton is almost 2/3rds empty. See for yourself, the Conservation pool is 36.66% full today. It will be less tomorrow, and we have a long way to go. Here's the link: Canton Lake


There is no proof that the water will stop, it is not yet available. I have always said it was unknown. The Corps do not know if 30,000 acre-feet can be drawn or not. We will find out in the next two weeks or so. What they have said is, if it stops you're done with the draw.

Your same website shows 47,246 storage acft at 9PM tonight.

CNLO2: Canton Lake (tabular)

[law]

The important page is Canton Lake. Only the water between 1615.40 and 1596.50 is in the conservation pool. The water in the inactive pool is not available to OKC. The middle portion of the graph is the conservation pool. The blue area in the middle section is all you have left. At 2100, 2Feb13, the conservation pool is 34.79% full. As you see they continue to increase the discharge.

[OKCisOK4me]

Two days for the first flow to show up and then two weeks of flow before it's done.

That's a "bleep" ton of water! I was gonna walk the shoreline tomorrow. Hopefully I can still see the river before it fills the bowl up.

[ljbab728]

The important page is Canton Lake. Only the water between 1615.40 and 1596.50 is in the conservation pool. The water in the inactive pool is not available to OKC. The middle portion of the graph is the conservation pool. The blue area in the middle section is all you have left. At 2100, 2Feb13, the conservation pool is 34.79% full. As you see they continue to increase the discharge.

I see, so inactive water isn't really water and doesn't count. LOL.

That's exactly what I meant about exaggeration. You neglected to mention that you were talking about only 1/3 of the water that OKC could draw from was left and left the impression that only 1/3 of the water in the lake was left.

You said:

It is a basic math, since 1/3 is 33.3%, therefore Canton is almost 2/3rds empty.

[OKCisOK4me]

I see, so inactive water isn't really water and doesn't count. LOL.

Maybe it's like oxygen that's been expelled by a life form. It's the same but its value is not the same lol.

[blangtang]

The City of Norman is having trouble because Lake Thunderbird is really low. They've implemented some conservations measures. I am surprised OKC hasn't used the media to spread the word.

But IIRC in Norman they have a 60" or 72" pipe from OKC that is at penalty rates when they are desperate, usually only in July and August in the past they have tapped it. But the more I think of it, its coming from places like Canton Lake.

If nothing else, this issue won't be going away anytime in the future, and just by browsing this thread, most people are still in the dark on this subject, including myself!...Other than that i figure this issue will dissipate some with the usual springtime rains.

[ljbab728]

The City of Norman is having trouble because Lake Thunderbird is really low. They've implemented some conservations measures. I am surprised OKC hasn't used the media to spread the word.

But IIRC in Norman they have a 60" or 72" pipe from OKC that is at penalty rates when they are desperate, usually only in July and August in the past they have tapped it. But the more I think of it, its coming from places like Canton Lake.

If nothing else, this issue won't be going away anytime in the future, and just by browsing this thread, most people are still in the dark on this subject, including myself!...Other than that i figure this issue will dissipate some with the usual springtime rains.

This has hardly been lacking in media coverage.

[Midtowner]

That Sardis matter may very well backfire on them of that is the case.... If I were the tribes I would use Canton Lake as a poster child in court. Once this release is complete and the lake is as low as it's going to get, there will be mass media coverage and pictures galore... then if all the fish die, there will pictures of millions of fish carcasses floating in whats left of Canton. There will be much talk of the stench of those rotting fish and all of this will make the news...I promise you that. So in essence the OCWUT is giving ammo to the tribes by killing Canton Lake, they may very well be giving them the bullet they need to kill the Sardis deal.

You can think this is a little melodramatic if you wish, but I assure you this is all very likely to happen due to this current water draw.

The best thing the OCWUT could do would be to close the gates on Canton and seek 4 or 5 months worth of water elsewhere.

I don't think the tribes will have a good legal argument based on OKC using water and killing fish in an artificial lake. Their argument is centered around the Winters Doctrine and is pretty weak anyhow. Winters was a case which took part in the arid Western U.S. in the early 20th century. It states that the tribes have an implied right to as much water as they need to irrigate all of the irrigable land on their reservations. Two problems 1) there are no reservations in Oklahoma and 2) there is enough rainwater to irrigate all of the irrigable land in SE Oklahoma, so storage rights aren't implied.

There's also 3) they waited until construction on Sardis was complete and after OKC had already paid for the rights. They had years to intervene and did not. There are plenty of equitable principles against the tribes.

I disagree that the tribes would be better environmental stewards. They expressly want to sell that water to North Texas for more than OKC would pay. In fact, in tribal hands, you'd much more likely see those lakes dry than in OKC hands.

[law]

I see, so inactive water isn't really water and doesn't count. LOL.
That's exactly what I meant about exaggeration. You neglected to mention that you were talking about only 1/3 of the water that OKC could draw from was left and left the impression that only 1/3 of the water in the lake was left.

You should do a little research. The inactive pool is EXACTLY that, INACTIVE!

Here's the definition: Dead or inactive storage refers to water in a reservoir that cannot be drained by gravity through a dam's outlet works, spillway or power plant intake and can only be pumped out. Dead storage allows sediments to settle which improves water quality

It is not available. You do not and cannot "OWN" it. NO ONE IS KEEPING ANYTHING FROM YOU! There is not enough water in the inactive pool to help you. If the inactive pool would keep the fish alive, there wouldn't be the same complaints. Everything I have told you is true. You will drain this lake to inactive, and without rains above Canton there will be no more from Canton for Hefner.


Conservation pool is 34.12% full. Pray for rain.

[law]

i figure this issue will dissipate some with the usual springtime rains.

Maybe, but solutions to these problems take a lot of time. And since OKC and other metro areas hardly admit there is any problem, it will not be fixed. They are too busy selling the fictional "water laden lifestyle".

What if it doesn't rain?

[mkjeeves]

. They are too busy selling the fictional "water laden lifestyle".

Isn't that what you are selling? A community dependent on a fictional water laden lifestyle, Canton?

[law]

Hardly.