OKANA Resort & Indoor Waterpark

[Zuplar]

I didnt know the tribes need so much help for their developments. The Choctaws can build a 1,000 room hotel, casino and resort in Durant of all places yet we need to pitch in 9 figures, or 1/3 of the costs, for this project to happen in OKC? You can go on forever with the "without this development that money doesnt exist."

Im not against some help here but the ask is way above and beyond normal as Pete shows.

They definitely deserve to get some TIF, but I too question why they need such a large amount when they’ve proven to operate successful ventures in these very rural locations. A lot of people just give the tribes a rubber stamp of approval on their decisions and actions. I guess I’m more old school and need to be convinced on everything. At this point it’s early and not sure there is a huge concern.

[chssooner]

They definitely deserve to get some TIF, but I too question why they need such a large amount when they’ve proven to operate successful ventures in these very rural locations. A lot of people just give the tribes a rubber stamp of approval on their decisions and actions. I guess I’m more old school and need to be convinced on everything. At this point it’s early and not sure there is a huge concern.

But this isn't tribal land, it is city land where they are developing. So comparing this with a casino and hotel development is not apples to apples.

[Urbanized]

Casinos and resorts in places like Durant and Thackerville aren’t built to serve the rural population that surrounds them. They’re not built to serve Oklahoma City or Tulsa, either. Heck, for the most part they’re not even built to serve customers from Oklahoma. They’re built to serve the DFW market. Period.

I’m not saying OKANA is a gamble. It’s not. But it’s also not the sure-thing easy money that a Choctaw casino in Durant is.

[Laramie]

The Dallas-Fort Worth market will be generous to those north of the Oklahoma-Texas border. New money being pumped into the Oklahoma economy. Don't recall any large investments by the Chickasaw Tribe that failed.

Yes, WINSTAR owned by the Chickasaw Tribe who are currently funding the OKANA RESORT will add a boost to the area. The Chickasaw Nation's investment in OKANA now expected to balloon the project to well over $325 million.

The Chickasaw Nation started a vision for the 100 acres (I-35/I-40) access long before the museum was completed. Road Infrastructure access to the resort and museum will be the key.

The recently completed $175 million FAM Museum combined with the $325 million resort will total $500 million. This will increase the property values outlining the two projects and attract serious investments that could easily double or triple the museum & resort investment.

.

[Zuplar]

But this isn't tribal land, it is city land where they are developing. So comparing this with a casino and hotel development is not apples to apples.

I never said it was tribal land nor did I say it’s exactly like their others. I do think comparisons can be drawn. That’s fine if you disagree.

Also a question, while I know it’s not tribal land, I thought someone mentioned in this thread that ownership of this land was conveyed to the tribe. Is this accurate or is this still city owned?

[Pete]

Also a question, while I know it’s not tribal land, I thought someone mentioned in this thread that ownership of this land was conveyed to the tribe. Is this accurate or is this still city owned?

The museum is still owned by the city, but all the surrounding land is owned by the Chickasaws.

[Zuplar]

The museum is still owned by the city, but all the surrounding land is owned by the Chickasaws.

Thanks for the clarification.

[HOT ROD]

And furthermore, that surrounding land was gifted t the Chickasaws for helping bring the museum home. So why?? the need for record TIF amount for the already gifted land?

Not saying they shouldn't get TIF or anything against the development. But this appears to be a pattern by the Economic Development office (see Omni Hotel, Bass Pro, for example) where we offer way too many incentives to get (usually) a lackluster development. Again, not against TIF or any of these developments per say - just how the OKC officials keep padding the pockets of developers without at least insisting on high quality, highrise development in exchange for government handouts *deferred taxation.

I think you CAN compare casino development on tribal land to that in OKC. Those other developments turned out top knotch without government support. So why would an OKC development require massive government support? Wouldnt you think it'd be the other way around - develoiping in a major city would pay for itself in the long run?

Anyway, not a tax expert either nor even an OKC resident. Just noticing a PATTERN and decided to express my thoughts.

[Swake]

And furthermore, that surrounding land was gifted t the Chickasaws for helping bring the museum home. So why?? the need for record TIF amount for the already gifted land?

Not saying they shouldn't get TIF or anything against the development. But this appears to be a pattern by the Economic Development office (see Omni Hotel, Bass Pro, for example) where we offer way too many incentives to get (usually) a lackluster development. Again, not against TIF or any of these developments per say - just how the OKC officials keep padding the pockets of developers without at least insisting on high quality, highrise development in exchange for government handouts *deferred taxation.

I think you CAN compare casino development on tribal land to that in OKC. Those other developments turned out top knotch without government support. So why would an OKC development require massive government support? Wouldnt you think it'd be the other way around - develoiping in a major city would pay for itself in the long run?

Anyway, not a tax expert either nor even an OKC resident. Just noticing a PATTERN and decided to express my thoughts.

Those other projects DO have governmental support. The tribe is the government on tribal land.

[Laramie]

This project IMO is worthy of TIF. If it wasn't for the Chickasaw Nation Tribe, the museum would be idle still requiring the City to pay for security of the unfinished venue.

Sure $102.2 million in an extraordinary amount of TIF; however is there a ceiling on how much TIF can be awarded for a project. Kudos to the Chickasaw Tribe for finishing the museum and presenting a project that will boost tourism to our city.

Now we have a chance to bring more out-of-state money into Oklahoma City with a 404 room resort hotel (non casino) to OKC. This project has the potential to build an Aquarium in its subsequent phases. Any TIF that can help them reach their goal (All phases) with a good clean family venue without gambling ties--bring it on.

The whole area around this resort-museum combo will be a win for OKC. This resort will be a springboard for future developments to the area.

A game-changer, that didn't require MAPS funding support or bond indebtedness by the City.

.

[foodiefan]

^^^^

[Scott5114]

Don't recall any large investments by the Chickasaw Tribe that failed..

The urgent care chain they operated (Sovereign) was quietly rebranded as employee-only healthcare clinics, most likely because they couldn't turn enough of a profit with them. When they fail, they usually do so in a quiet way like that. Rather than close a facility they just change it to something internal and it just kind of disappears.

I worked for their casinos for ten years and I think people here are a little bit too quick to praise the organization's business acumen sometimes. I saw a lot of mismanagement while I was there, and a lot of money going down the drain on projects that couldn't ever work or frills that didn't matter. But you pretty much have to actively try to run a casino into the ground. They just make good money when they could be making great money, so to speak.

That's not to say I don't think Okana will do well. I don't know if it will or not; I hope it does. But I think it will really come down to if they can find some really high-caliber people to run it and not the usual type of crew they put in charge, since they're really not operating with a net the way they do with a casino.

[catcherinthewry]

Lackmeyer is reporting in The Oklahoman today that the Chickasaws want to add an aquarium and the Maps 4 soccer stadium to this development. I've been told that the city is definitely considering this site for the stadium. I think it would be a great fit. On a less optimistic note I was told by a banker who passed on the loan for OKANA that he has a hard time seeing it getting the nightly rates for the resort and the daily rates for the water features that they need to make the project work. I hope he's wrong, but he rarely is.

[Pete]

^

Putting the soccer stadium there would totally cut it off from any other downtown amenities. OKANA will be nice, but it will be an island unto itself.


And they've mentioned the aquarium before; it's completely conceptual along with very indefinite plans for future phases.

[catcherinthewry]

^

Putting the soccer stadium there would totally cut it off from any other downtown amenities. OKANA will be nice, but it will be an island unto itself.


And they've mentioned the aquarium before; it's completely conceptual along with very indefinite plans for future phases.

The stadium site could be a matter of money since some of the other sites they are considering would be very expensive. I don't know of any details of any possible deal between the city and the Chickasaws, but a stadium next to OKANA would definitely benefit the tribe.

[G.Walker]

Lackmeyer is reporting in The Oklahoman today that the Chickasaws want to add an aquarium and the Maps 4 soccer stadium to this development. I've been told that the city is definitely considering this site for the stadium. I think it would be a great fit. On a less optimistic note I was told by a banker who passed on the loan for OKANA that he has a hard time seeing it getting the nightly rates for the resort and the daily rates for the water features that they need to make the project work. I hope he's wrong, but he rarely is.

I wouldn't even think they would need a loan. Chickasaws have tons of money, js....

[catcherinthewry]

I wouldn't even think they would need a loan. Chickasaws have tons of money, js....

My banker friend told me the Chickasaws were trying to finance this through any entity that didn't include their casinos. He didn't want any part of it and advised a colleague from another bank not to loan to them unless they included their casinos as part of the collateral.

[Laramie]

The stadium has a budget of $37 million in MAPS 4. The City should take them up on this offer especially since OKANA Resort will occupy 40 acres of the 100 acres of land given the tribe in exchange for the completion of the museum. The Tribe could build a much larger stadium which would open the stadium for bidding on more events especially having a 400 room resort with the Aquarium & Stadium added.

The stadium could occupy less than 15 acres and be used for outdoor concerts with a structured parking garage to accommodate the museum, OKANA Resort and the stadium.

This is a win-win for both the Chickasaw Tribe and the City.

[Rover]

My banker friend told me the Chickasaws were trying to finance this through any entity that didn't include their casinos. He didn't want any part of it and advised a colleague from another bank not to loan to them unless they included their casinos as part of the collateral.

How could the bank even take possession of the casino in a foreclosure? They couldn’t operate a casino as a non Native American entity and no gaming license available.

[Pete]

How could the bank even take possession of the casino in a foreclosure? They couldn’t operate a casino as a non Native American entity and no gaming license available.

The Chickasaws could pledge future revenues, machines, etc.

[Pete]

From this morning. They must not be too worried about getting approval for the $102 million.

[Scott5114]

The Chickasaws could pledge future revenues, machines, etc.

The Chickasaws don't actually own the machines in their casinos, they rent them from a number of vendors. Works out better for them that way as they can change the machines out for newer ones more frequently, and when they need more intense maintenance than the in-house techs can provide, they can call the vendor techs to perform that work.

[Pete]

^

Still, future revenue streams -- which are by far more valuable -- are often pledged as collateral for loans.

[chssooner]

Not sure I should link to the Newsok article, but there are talks to put the MAPS 4 stadium here. Not sure I love the idea, though. On one hand, it's on the river, and could have a nice view of downtown for some of the crowd. On the other, that is a lot in one small area, and that Eastern/I-40 area is absolute garbage, from an infrastructure POV.

[5alive]

Well this might be the impetus to improve the infrastructure in that area.