Oklahoma Turnpike Authority

[stlokc]

I'm not an expert in any of these issues but I think in "growing" regions the calculus is different than in regions that are "slow growth." In the St. Louis metro area, which is growing at an extremely anemic rate (like 2% a decade), the argument about adding highways amounts to policymakers not wanting to make it easier for people to spread out. You make it easier/faster for people to drive a 20 mile commute, the argument is they are more likely to do that 20 mile commute, which adds more sprawl. Nobody is backfilling the neighborhoods that are emptying out, but the infrastructure in those areas still have to be maintained with the same or fewer tax dollars.

Now, if you're Dallas, or to a certain extent OKC, an argument could be made that as the city grows, the additional people have to live somewhere and the neighborhoods that get left behind when people move to the suburbs are backfilled by the next wave of people to move in.

However, there will come a time when the demographics of the nation will crest, work habits will keep evolving and the whole way that people choose to commute or not will be totally different. I can easily imagine a scenario in which there are far fewer miles driven by vehicle in 2042 or 2052 than in 2022.

[jedicurt]

i mean work from home made me decision for me about not moving out of Norman. because i love it here. i was starting to get tired of a 30 miles one way to work each day. but now that isn't an issue for me. and allows me to work from wherever. I love these new turnpikes because of the economic development it might bring. I've never understood why Norman and Moore never really grew together. and this should fix that. as well as finally giving an area where some development can happen on the far East side past Sooner.

[stlokc]

I'll be curious about whether these turnpikes really bring a lot of development.

I definitely see the stretch between I-44 and I-35, between Moore and Norman acting as a catalyst. I bet that area will look like Memorial Road one day. But the part to the east/northeast of Norman seems awfully distant from anything else. If there are only exits every 3-4 miles it will make it even more unlikely. I guess we'll see.

[MagzOK]

I'll be curious about whether these turnpikes really bring a lot of development.

I definitely see the stretch between I-44 and I-35, between Moore and Norman acting as a catalyst. I bet that area will look like Memorial Road one day. But the part to the east/northeast of Norman seems awfully distant from anything else. If there are only exits every 3-4 miles it will make it even more unlikely. I guess we'll see.

The cities will need to rezone properties along the turnpike exits to be able to bring economic development along the new turnpikes. If they want to do it, they can. The purpose of this turnpike in the east is to hopefully take some of the truck traffic and other thru traffic around the city and off I-35 which is beyond capacity. Perhaps it will spur construction of more new homes in that part of the metro.

[stlokc]

Agreed as to the real purpose of this turnpike, MagzOK. This is a bypass and will be primarily used by truck traffic and other cross-country traffic. People from the east and northeast going to Texas for example.

With the exception of the stretch between I-44 and I-35, I really don't see this being used day-to-day by very many commuters. Are there a lot of people, for example, that live in Shawnee or far eastern Oklahoma County and commute to Norman, or vice versa? I assume there are some.

I imagine the primary development will be highway-oriented uses, like truck stops and fast food. I may be wrong.

I feel like the reason there is so much development along the Memorial Road stretch is because there are already so many people just in that general vicinity.

[onthestrip]

The cities will need to rezone properties along the turnpike exits to be able to bring economic development along the new turnpikes. If they want to do it, they can. The purpose of this turnpike in the east is to hopefully take some of the truck traffic and other thru traffic around the city and off I-35 which is beyond capacity. Perhaps it will spur construction of more new homes in that part of the metro.

The rezoning will be done by individual owners whenever its time to develop. A city cant rezone a privately owned property without the owner going along with it. The biggest issue for cities is getting utilities to these turnpikes, much like the Choctaw/Harrah areas with the new turnpike. Sure theres new opportunities now with that highway up and running but not if water and sewer are a mile away.

[Jersey Boss]

i mean work from home made me decision for me about not moving out of Norman. because i love it here. i was starting to get tired of a 30 miles one way to work each day. but now that isn't an issue for me. and allows me to work from wherever. I love these new turnpikes because of the economic development it might bring. I've never understood why Norman and Moore never really grew together. and this should fix that. as well as finally giving an area where some development can happen on the far East side past Sooner.

I think this will boil down to the impact on Thunderbird and it being the source of drinking water in Norman. Usually the arguement is public use v. private use and public wins in eminent domain cases. Now you will have public use v. public use making for an interesting court case.
I also don't know if the fact that Thunderbird was created with federal dollars will make any difference.

[jedicurt]

I think this will boil down to the impact on Thunderbird and it being the source of drinking water in Norman. Usually the arguement is public use v. private use and public wins in eminent domain cases. Now you will have public use v. public use making for an interesting court case.
I also don't know if the fact that Thunderbird was created with federal dollars will make any difference.

or the fact that Norman water is awful... so how much worse could a Turnpike make it?

[HangryHippo]

or the fact that Norman water is awful... so how much worse could a Turnpike make it?

Or why add to the problem?

[David]

Why would Thunderbird be a problem for the proposed turnpike? There are drinking water reservoirs all over the US that are next to highways, including multiple I can think of in Oklahoma.

[Snowman]

Talking about Thunderbird sounds like of like grasping for straws for groups against it in general, it is not like the area is an untamed wilderness. There is already many roads, homes and a highway closer to than the turnpike would be. Sure this probably would increase the amount of runoff from neighborhoods over time into tributaries flowing into the lake due to new construction, but it looks like at least half of Norman's current built environment already has runoff flowing to Thunderbird.

[Jersey Boss]

or the fact that Norman water is awful... so how much worse could a Turnpike make it?

While I am not in a position to answer your qustion I'm willing to guess the answer will be forthcoming from the inevitable lawsuit.

[David]

While I am not in a position to answer your qustion I'm willing to guess the answer will be forthcoming from the inevitable lawsuit.

What precisely would that lawsuit argue? It's gonna be news to Lake Hefner and Hefner Parkway if we find out you can't have a highway next to a lake.

[onthestrip]

What precisely would that lawsuit argue? It's gonna be news to Lake Hefner and Hefner Parkway if we find out you can't have a highway next to a lake.

I have no idea how this would measurably pollute anything more than it is now. But reason goes out the window when it comes to NIMBYs. Any and all excuses, regardless of legitimacy, will be brought up to fight it. Im sure that even insect and wildlife endangerment will be thrown up as an obstacle.

[BoulderSooner]

I have no idea how this would measurably pollute anything more than it is now. But reason goes out the window when it comes to NIMBYs. Any and all excuses, regardless of legitimacy, will be brought up to fight it. Im sure that even insect and wildlife endangerment will be thrown up as an obstacle.

the nimby's were just as mad about the eastern oklahoma turnpike ... and it still got build ....

this will move forward full steam ahead

[shavethewhales]

Agreed as to the real purpose of this turnpike, MagzOK. This is a bypass and will be primarily used by truck traffic and other cross-country traffic. People from the east and northeast going to Texas for example.

With the exception of the stretch between I-44 and I-35, I really don't see this being used day-to-day by very many commuters. Are there a lot of people, for example, that live in Shawnee or far eastern Oklahoma County and commute to Norman, or vice versa? I assume there are some.

I imagine the primary development will be highway-oriented uses, like truck stops and fast food. I may be wrong.

I feel like the reason there is so much development along the Memorial Road stretch is because there are already so many people just in that general vicinity.

Exactly. Call me a "NIMBY" if you want, but this project is nothing more than a truck route/long commuter route that will promote even more urban sprawl in arguably the worst area of urban sprawl in the country. There are plenty of reasons why people don't want yet another turnpike in their backyard. Not sure why so many in this thread are licking the OTA boot. You don't have to build every highway concept that someone thinks up. We have too many as it is. The only new turnpike I would want to see is something that connects Tulsa to Dallas better. Everything else is linked well enough and we need to focus on mass transportation options, denser development, and maintaining what we have.

[Snowman]

Exactly. Call me a "NIMBY" if you want, but this project is nothing more than a truck route/long commuter route that will promote even more urban sprawl in arguably the worst area of urban sprawl in the country. There are plenty of reasons why people don't want yet another turnpike in their backyard. Not sure why so many in this thread are licking the OTA boot. You don't have to build every highway concept that someone thinks up. We have too many as it is. The only new turnpike I would want to see is something that connects Tulsa to Dallas better. Everything else is linked well enough and we need to focus on mass transportation options, denser development, and maintaining what we have.

Granted it is not promoting sustainable development patterns, but seems impossible to make a case this is worst sprawl than places like Houston, Atlanta, LA, Dallas, Pheonix; with probably several others on par closer to our size in the south/southwest that also do not have geographic boundaries either.

[jedicurt]

The only new turnpike I would want to see is something that connects Tulsa to Dallas better.

Like the one proposed?

[Plutonic Panda]

Huh? Which one there are no mor beans

[GaryOKC6]

ODOT did a study on the traffic from Norman to OKC during rush hour and determined that the traffic was at an alarming level for Houston TX.

[BG918]

Like the one proposed?

1/3 of it is already the Indian Nation Turnpike, it would be nice to see that extended north to connect to Tulsa using the existing 75 corridor with bypasses built around Henryetta and Okmulgee. The highway will already be built to turnpike standards through Tulsa County by 2030.

The southern leg would need to be a new turnpike that extends north from Durant to connect to the Indian Nation Turnpike near McAlester. It would involve upgrading the corridor to turnpike standards and building new bypasses at Atoka, Stringtown and Savanna.

There is no reason we have a limited access turnpike to Hugo but Tulsa isn't connected directly to Dallas, especially with the growth along the 75 corridor in Texas.

[Laramie]

The pain of growth continues in the Norman-Moore, OK area which are among Oklahoma City's largest suburbs with approximately 130,000-65,000 residents, Norman and Moore combined represent close to 200,000 residents encircling 200 sq. miles.

Proposed toll road expansion

Let's face it, no one wants their dream homes uprooted to make room for an expressway regardless of whether you live in a well-to-do
neighborhood or one not so well-to-do, it's your home, your life, your roots and your memories. Progress comes with a price.

OKC is following the progress of many cities like Nashville, Kansas City & Cincinnati where the expressways loop around the inner city and expand that interstate loop into the surrounding suburbs.

The loop surrounds the city

[Jersey Boss]

1/3 of it is already the Indian Nation Turnpike, it would be nice to see that extended north to connect to Tulsa using the existing 75 corridor with bypasses built around Henryetta and Okmulgee. The highway will already be built to turnpike standards through Tulsa County by 2030.

The southern leg would need to be a new turnpike that extends north from Durant to connect to the Indian Nation Turnpike near McAlester. It would involve upgrading the corridor to turnpike standards and building new bypasses at Atoka, Stringtown and Savanna.

There is no reason we have a limited access turnpike to Hugo but Tulsa isn't connected directly to Dallas, especially with the growth along the 75 corridor in Texas.

This makes much more sense than the current rationale.

[MagzOK]

The pain of growth continues in the Norman-Moore, OK area which are among Oklahoma City's largest suburbs with approximately 130,000-65,000 residents, Norman and Moore combined represent close to 200,000 residents encircling 200 sq. miles.

Proposed toll road expansion

Let's face it, no one wants their dream homes uprooted to make room for an expressway regardless of whether you live in a well-to-do
neighborhood or one not so well-to-do, it's your home, your life, your roots and your memories. Progress comes with a price.

OKC is following the progress of many cities like Nashville, Kansas City & Cincinnati where the expressways loop around the inner city and expand that interstate loop into the surrounding suburbs.

The loop surrounds the city

You're absolutely right. Everyone enjoys the growth and popularity the OKC metro area is getting, they love all the new buildings, restaurants -- all these destinations that need the infrastructure to support it to get everyone to these places. If you've driven our interstate system during rush hour -- or even on the weekends you'd note the abundance of traffic just exploding out of the seems. Just one example, when we're coming home from Dallas on any given weekend and we get to about the Goldsby exit coming home on Sunday evening, traffic thickens up almost bumper to bumper, there's road rage, and it just feels unsafe. This thick traffic continues all the way up to downtown OKC and once I hit 235 to go north from there it finally gets a little better. This is every single time we go and it has become worse three fold in the last 25 years since I've lived here. I make this drive usually twice a month the last couple years. The traffic is only getting worse and will continue to do so. These relief routes are necessary, period.

[Plutonic Panda]

I don’t think people want to acknowledge just how bad the traffic is beginning to get in OKC. Obviously it isn’t near LA or NYC levels but it’ll become Dallas or Austin tier within a decade or two. They can’t build new freeways or widen existing ones fast enough. I think ODOT and the OTA is noticing it.

Being that I live in LA and deal with this bullsh!t traffic I’m somewhat desensitized to it but I still notice it how bad it is becoming around OKC.