Streetcar

[Snowman]

Any kind of line on its own to HSC will be hard to justify for week and day-round ridership. I would argue that pushing through to at least MLK and 23rd at the same time makes a lot more sense and would be more viable.

Neither of the 23rd or MLK are dense area, lets stop trying to over extend every mass transit system to the point of uselessness everywhere they serve.

[catch22]

Very telling that a diverging viewpoint of how to best serve public transit is quickly chased away from this thread....

What is it telling of?

OKCTalk is not comprised of 2 posters, neither is this thread. There are many people who participate in this discussion, and who have for years, who are completely neutral from the route process. Just as in other threads, ideas that are outside the box ("diverging viewpoint) are usually embraced by this community if they make sense. Just because a "diverging viewpoint" is presented doesn't automatically make it a good idea. Obviously the many people on this thread don't agree on every idea presented. C'mon Steve, you know better than that.

[Just the facts]

Catch 22 - I agree with with your post about the HSC and in my opinion it was one of the areas that needs to be targeted for urbanization. That is why I voiced my displeasure over the three most recent projects for the area: Toby Keith Hotel, the Embassy Suites, and the OIPA headquarters. This area has to start being made walkable and the parking lots replaced with residential, retail, and even non-medical related businesses. Designed properly, the streecar could help direct that growth, but you are right, it can't meander through the district while we are waiting for densification to occur. The City needs to create an urban over-lay district for the HSC area that requires new construction to focus on walkability and encourages in-fill and retro-fit. With 10,000 employees in the area (even more if you add in the Capitol complex) this areas could easily support over 1,000 housing units - and probably more.

[betts]

Lots of time to think. To be blunt, some of the points were so telling, I will just have to agree to disagree and walk away. Most of the concern for the treatment or disdain for the bus system was validated in other threads. I'm not going to be here long enough to suffer much more. Lol. Back to a city where buses are embraced and rail is done to enhance corridors.

This is the problem with message boards. It's difficult to cover all points in a post and keep it short enough to be readable. So, impressions are created that may be inaccurate. I'm not sure many people who really care about transit have disdain for a bus system. Any disdain I've noticed is for our bus system, which is user unfriendly. Speaking for myself, and I'm the only person I should be speaking for, I think an improved transit system is essential if we want to move forward as a city. I'm a bus rider from way back, so personally I'm fine with bus transit. But, I will say, because I've talked to many, many people about this, that it will be very difficult to get long-term funding for only a bus system. Right or wrong, buses are perceived by many as slow, noisy, dirty and user unfriendly. I don't think buying more buses and putting in stops and signage will help this perception immediately. I think we need our population to buy into multi-modal transit, with the bus system benefiting as a result. By using means of transit that are more popular, you will gradually change the perception of buses. A regional transit authority is what we should all be working towards, as that will help us get funding for all modes of transit. If we label ourselves as pro-bus and anti-rail or pro-rail and anti-bus we play into the hands of people who don't care about any forms of mass transit and we will all lose.

[Just the facts]

I agress Betts - OKC needs a regional mass transit network that consist of commuter rail, streetcars, and buses. Anyone who thinks an effective regional system can be built with 1 out of 3, or even 2 out of 3 isn't living in the 21st century. It takes all 3 working together feeding each other. Throw in connections to HSR, long distance traditional trains, airlines, and other regional systems and the synergy is multiplied (say connecting OKC regional mass transit system with Wichita and Tulsa via an express train).

In a perfect system you should be able to get from 2310 NW 20th St in OKC to 2211 East 39th St in Tulsa without owning a car in less than 1,000 steps.

[jedicurt]

I agress Betts - OKC needs a regional mass transit network that consist of commuter rail, streetcars, and buses. Anyone who thinks an effective regional system can be built with 1 out of 3, or even 2 out of 3 isn't living in the 21st century. It takes all 3 working together feeding each other. Throw in connections to HSR, long distance traditional trains, airlines, and other regional systems and the synergy is multiplied (say connecting OKC regional mass transit system with Wichita and Tulsa via an express train).

In a perfect system you should be able to get from 2310 NW 20th St in OKC to 2211 East 39th St in Tulsa without owning a car in less than 1,000 steps.

exactly... this is why Just the Facts and i are able to go back and forth on issues... because we both agree that regional mass transit network that consists of a multitude of options that are all interconnected for ease of use, we just sometimes might disagree with how exactly to accomplish this the best. that is what the forums are best for. The people who don't agree with the first statement above, i would like to think are few in numbers... it's just a matter of people having different opinions of how to get to that point we all know we want.

[jedicurt]

...Ever since I started to see routes tossed around, I've been disappointed with how apparent the whole project has been aimed at TOD. Treating the streetcar like a tool of economic development first and not transit.

I agree 100% with this. Instead of using it for Economic development that will hopefully later work for transit... it should be built for the best route as a transit system, and that alone will spur economic development along it.

[Urban Pioneer]

$120 is 7 years of our bus system's budget. If we could double our budget for 7 years, think of how much we could improve transit. Just think about that.

But there lies the problem with this debate/discussion that Councilman Shadid is trying to create. We can't think about it that way as far as MAPS 3 is concerned.

MAPS only pays for infrastructure. Not operational funding.

That is something that he has distinctly not explained to the public when has had these forums and broader discussions.

He has and is propagating the illusion that we now have a choice between streetcars and buses. We don't. That's not what we promised the voters and that's not what they voted on.

At best we could build some bus shelters, but then we would need a permanent funding source to maintain them.

If we all worked together, without division, we could probably develop a comprehensive funding solution for all transit modes (particularly bus) as part of a comprehensive regional transit solution.

[BoulderSooner]

if we (okc) were to divert the 120 mil to the bus system (and as UP said maps money is for capital projects and can't be used to just up the bus system routes/funding) but say we built lots of new shelters and bought new buses .. we would at the same time kill MAPS. It would be dead and the public trust in voting for it would be over

of course i think Councilman Shadid is fine with maps dying .. fortunately most of the council are not

[betts]

Ever since I started to see routes tossed around, I've been disappointed with how apparent the whole project has been aimed at TOD. Treating the streetcar like a tool of economic development first and not transit.

HSC is a good concept exactly for the reasons that others think it isn't. We don't need a system that will attract just the dinner crowd. We need a winning route. Since we already take a lot of people there already, just inefficiently, I find it a useful consideration. The discussion has centered around the 'sub-urbanness' of the area which again, illustrates how completely different my thoughts are. We are already serving this district with multiple routes. I'd like to get ridership information to HSC but I've been on every route that goes through there and it is quite a lot of folks. Just just a few an hour.

Jill, I understand you talk to a lot of people. But please know I do too. Our bus system needs work, but it does work and it works for thousand and thousands of people. We can agree that it needs improvement but it sounded to me like you were suggesting we ignore it simply because we need to wipe it clean and start over. I think we'd like to do that to a lot of things but that's not reality. We have to make incremental changes and improvements. There are some great people working hard to do this and some folks like me feel that if we raise our hand and ask how 120M is going to improve the bus system, the only response we are worthy of getting is that more people will fall in love with transit because of the streetcar. I've said already, I can't swallow that.

The streetcar route that we selected, after months and months of looking at it, driving it, thinking about it, was absolutely not aimed at only TOD. It was aimed at ridership, TOD, connection of downtown attractions: city shaping and city serving. It's impossible to leave TOD out of the equation, because that too is something we need downtown. If people didn't care about improving our downtown and urban experience, this forum would likely exist with far fewer readers, far fewer posts. I suspect the two busiest forums are those that look at urban development. But that was never the only consideration. And, it was never only the dinner crowd that we considered either. We considered people who live near the north part of the route who might work downtown or in Bricktown, we considered visitors to OKC, as well as people who live in Deep Deuce and the suburbs. We only have 5 to 6 miles, and we looked for a route that would maximize the number of users. If it encourages TOD - great. If it is popular enough that it encourages people who would not ordinarily look at improving mass transit in OKC to do so - even better. Also, no one on the streetcar committee is so committed to the route that we won't be open to alternate suggestions. That's why we were so eager to have more analysis from people experienced in the field. Many of us, you included, have done a lot to educate ourselves on the subject, but none of us can claim to be experts in the field.

In an ideal world, we would have gotten the federal grant and could serve both the Health Sciences Center and the Heritage Hills/Mesta Park/Midtown/St. Anthony's/CBD/Core to Shore/Bricktown/Deep Deuce areas. I too would like to see the Health Sciences Center numbers, but since we have no bus route that is comparable to the recommended streetcar route, we're going to be comparing apples and estimates. I still suspect the HSC route is underutilized, based on my personal observations, but I am not opposed to looking at the numbers. I don't see it as a winning route, nor do I see it as a consciousness-raising route, which is another important consideration to be added to ridership, TOD and important connections. But that is my personal observation and opinion, not gospel.

As Jeff has said, we can't use the $120 million for anything but capitol improvements. I hate to keep harping on it, but this is why we need an RTA. We can't improve our bus system without a significant permanent increase in the funding source. I would like to see our bus system improved. But, MAPS 3 money is not the solution and united we stand.......

[Urban Pioneer]

Jeff, none of my comments should be construed to mean I have any less respect for the work you guys have done. I really hope you know that. I also know that you've been in politics long enough to recognize when people are sharing their opinions, which may be different, but still have no problem respecting each other in the process. Like you, I want the streetcar to be a wild success.

Of course. Same here. We fought for buses too "before the docket was set". Many of us still continue to fight for buses. People forget that.

Regarding the route, I have no problem with improvements or changes. Downtown itself is changing and we have to respond to that. Personally I hope that the streetcar is so well designed and successful, that it justifies direct linkage to The Plaza District, OCU, or 23rd street to unite those areas with downtown.

The first phase is always the hardest. As Shadid would say, "The empirical data supports that." lol

[Popsy]

If the money cannot be used for buses, how can it be used for a streetcar? I suppose the rails are infrastructure, but the streetcars are no different than a bus. If memory serves, the ballot did say something to the effect that the council had the right to change whatever they wanted to change.

[Urban Pioneer]

Technically, we could buy a hundred buses. But we certainly wouldn't have the operating revenues to run them.

Streetcar Operations and Maintenance costs are within the manageable budget of the City Manager. A hundred buses are not. Also, the potential for designing the streetcar system and its related MAPS 3 infrastructure so that it is self sufficient is there. Examples would be constructing streetcar stops that offer advertising, parking garage construction/revenues, and leasing space in Santa-Fe Station. But that is all part of a "system".

The O&M on buses is so vastly different that it just simply requires more investment than the MAPS 3 transit program budget could afford. The streetcar proposal is simply of a manageable size to either be self sufficient or be absorbed in the general budget depending on what the council wants to do.

[Just the facts]

I am going to go back to my 3 street car lines all serving the downtown area. While these routes might to adjust a little bit as the result of engineerng studies I think they maiximize connectivity to all existing points of interest, downtown employers, hotels, and residential areas as well as provide ample opportunity for new developement to include urban greenfield (undeveloped blocks and large tracts) redevelopment of existing buildings (vacant space above 1st floor) and urban in-fill (small lots between exisiting buildings).






Red Line


Black Line

[BoulderSooner]

no chance politically that you are putting a line through HH and going by the new CC and the maps 3 park are both musts

[Just the facts]

That is fine, take the yellow line distance from north of the Edge and extend it to run by the convention center on the south (assuming that is where the convention center goes).

[BoulderSooner]

That is fine, take the yellow line distance from north of the Edge and extend it to run by the convention center on the south (assuming that is where the convention center goes).

are these all double tracked?

[Just the facts]

are these all double tracked?

Yes - the total distance comes to just a shade over 7 miles but some distance could be trimmed like having the black line turn around on Walker instead of going all the way to Lee or having the stubs of the yellow and red only be single track where they diverge at Plaza Court. That gets it down in the 6 mile range. Double tracking of those segments could be done during expansion (like say if the yellow line turned east on 13th st and went to the HSC and Capitol or the red line went up Classen to OCU)

[jedicurt]

Yes - the total distance comes to just a shade over 7 miles but some distance could be trimmed like having the black line turn around on Walker instead of going all the way to Lee or having the stubs of the yellow and red only be single track where they diverge at Plaza Court. That gets it down in the 6 mile range. Double tracking of those segments could be done during expansion (like say if the yellow line turned east on 13th st and went to the HSC and Capitol or the red line went up Classen to OCU)

instead of running it down broadway between 10th and 4th... couldn't you just run it down robinson the whole way? people should be able to walk the block over to broadway... while i ideally think that running it down broadway would be the way to go... traffic on this road can get crazy, especially with all of the traffic lights. i would just think that it might be more efficient to run it down robinson the whole way rather than the block shift over for just a few blocks north and south.

[Just the facts]

Automobile Alley is a corridor, not a neighborhood. Transit should go down corridors not adjacent to them. As for Broadway itself - it need some serious traffic calming anyhow. It way too wide and cars are going far too fast to make it safe for pedestrains.

[jedicurt]

Automobile Alley is a corridor, not a neighborhood. Transit should go down corridors not adjacent to them. As for Broadway itself - it need some serious traffic calming anyhow. It way too wide and cars are going far too fast to make it safe for pedestrains.

while i understand your reasoning of corridor vs. non-corridor, i tend to disagree in this instance.

as for the second half of your comment... i agree. Broadway needs some serious traffic calming and streamlining. it is not pedestrian friendly at all.

[Tier2City]

How about we split the difference..... and do a couplet?

[OKCisOK4me]

I like seeing streetcars on more intimate environments. Its slow moving and just feels better when it isn't competing with fast traffic. If Broadways isn't drastically improved, Robinson would be my pick.

I thought there were plans to have angled on street parking on both sides of Broadway through AA.

[soonerguru]

Very telling that a diverging viewpoint of how to best serve public transit is quickly chased away from this thread....

What are you talking about, Steve?

Are you suggesting the "divergent view" of taking money from the MAPS Streetcar, which was approved by voters, should be embraced?

Your innuendo is ridiculous.

[soonerguru]

Lots of time to think. To be blunt, some of the points were so telling, I will just have to agree to disagree and walk away. Most of the concern for the treatment or disdain for the bus system was validated in other threads. I'm not going to be here long enough to suffer much more. Lol. Back to a city where buses are embraced and rail is done to enhance corridors.

I don't want to argue either, you just suggested that I and others questioning Shadid's motives were possibly "paranoid." Now that he's on record, I think it's worth reevaluating your earlier suggestion.