Convention Center

[bradh]

While the park east site is to some "too far from Bricktown," what it does offer is an outstanding chance for Hubcap Alley to develop into something. I drive that stretch of Robinson everyday and I just think it's ripe for something great.

[Teo9969]

Isn't Hubcap Alley the space south of I-40? That's even further than Bricktown.

[bradh]

Isn't Hubcap Alley the space south of I-40? That's even further than Bricktown.

Yeah i know, probably a bad comparison, but the more non-park development south of the boulevard the better for that area. My fault

[mkjeeves]

"too far from Bricktown,"

Anecdotally, I've been to a few conventions...Dallas, Kansas City, Detroit, Orlando, Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis among them. The only time we ever walked somewhere to eat outside the venue was in Seattle, from the Washington State Convention Center to Pike Place, about a half mile. We did that one time during the convention. Almost all of the conventions had buffets in the center, great food usually, usually part of the plan. Frequently eating over some convention related presentation and/or socializing with other convention goers. Sometimes there were planned activities away from the center, both us on our own or some as small groups, but they were usually not walking distance, like a business to visit and tour as part of the convention, Epcot, an art museum or something. FWIW.

[Jersey Boss]

~850 feet between Harvey and EK Gaylord.

If you allotted 150ft to the capping, then the grade would still be less than 3°.

The area would be between 65% and 75% of the area of Bleu Garten and it would give pedestrians an unobstructed path to Reno.

I don't know about you, but when I am eating lunch in business attire, I prefer to eat at a table with chairs. Will there be enough for the crowd that would be served? Additionally in inclement weather, being tied to the choices of having to stand outside to order and eat is a non starter.

[Jersey Boss]

Anecdotally, I've been to a few conventions...Dallas, Kansas City, Detroit, Orlando, Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis among them. The only time we ever walked somewhere to eat outside the venue was in Seattle, from the Washington State Convention Center to Pike Place, about a half mile. We did that one time during the convention. Almost all of the conventions had buffets in the center, great food usually, usually part of the plan. Frequently eating over some convention related presentation and/or socializing with other convention goers. Sometimes there were planned activities away from the center, both us on our own or some as small groups, but they were usually not walking distance, like a business to visit and tour as part of the convention, Epcot, an art museum or something. FWIW.

I have the same perspective as this. Generally the out of town conferences that I have been to serve lunch buffet style on site.

[jerrywall]

I have the same perspective as this. Generally the out of town conferences that I have been to serve lunch buffet style on site.

I've experienced both. It depends if it's a business meeting type conference vs a more expo type. Steaming Media East and West, ComicCon, DefCon, Napte (tv advertising), DragonCon, Wizard World (which Tulsa got and not OKC) etc.... none of those offer a buffet. Attendees get their own lunch. That being said, in those type of conferences there's less of a rigid schedule, so closeness is less of a concern. So really, the times that timing matter, I agree, they tend to provide lunch.

[Urbanized]

I want to be careful saying this, because obviously a quality CC will be a major boon to Bricktown (and other parts of downtown), but honestly the CC needs Bricktown (and downtown hotels) more than downtown hotels and BT need the CC. Downtown hotels are packed nightly RIGHT NOW, even with inadequate CC facilities, and Bricktown gets more great news seemingly weekly in the form of residential, office, retail and hotel properties, all which stabilize and add to demand. The district's future is rosy, CC or no.

Walkable proximity to hotel rooms is equally or even more important than proximity to dining/entertainment. Being correctly proximate to existing hotels would also make the CC walkable to dining and entertainment options OUTSIDE of Bricktown (MBG, Park House, Mahogany, bars/restaurants in hotels and CBD). Bricktown would get conventioneers even if the CC weren't downtown. The trick is getting conventioneers to OKC in the first place, NOT getting them to Bricktown. The building has to be salable to planners.

To ensure CC viability OKC has to play to its strengths, and in the case of conventions believe it or not OKC's greatest asset is its walkable density downtown. Deviation from this formula is asking for trouble.

[Urbanized]

I kinda thought of that a long time ago. Where do you think our remaing "Phase 2" money is going?

So UP, how much will it cost in added track and additional ongoing operational budget to focus additional service at the CC to make up for poor connection to the rest of downtown? That number should absolutely be a part of the site selection formula, no matter whose budget it comes from. Those are real costs that could be avoided by making street car service incidental to the CC rather than a stop-gap measure to try and make the CC workable in a poor - but cheaper - location.

[Urban Pioneer]

Urbanized, I'll gladly respond later after H&8th.

[Urbanized]

Thanks UP.

[Just the facts]

The challenge to placing the CC in a walkable area is that there is a very real chance the CC will destroy the very walkability it was attracted to. This is because CCs are built way outside the human scale that is a fundamental ingrediant to walkability. The Pennsylvania CC killed the part of Philadelphia it is located in.

[Urban Pioneer]

1. "How much will it cost in added track and additional ongoing operational budget to focus additional service at the CC to make up for poor connection to the rest of downtown? "

A. I don't know yet but I suspect it will be all of the "Phase 2" money. B. If we are specifically talking about the "East Park" site, presumably their are cost efficiencies associated with the fact that the streets have not been built yet. C. It doesn't have to be a poor connection. I think streetcar can easily accommodate the "East Park" site. I think the opportunities are there to build a solid pedestrian connection into the area as well.

2. "That number should absolutely be a part of the site selection formula, no matter whose budget it comes from. Those are real costs... "

That would be nice. I would love it. However, I doubt it will happen in any type of actual report by the consultants. The Consultants always want to compartmentalize. Some members of the Convention Center Subcommittee (Gary Marrs, Ms. Hooper, Roy Williams, for what its worth, did publicly express a concern as to potential impacts not only to the streetcar, but all of the projects underway in the area... Park, OKC Boulevard, EK Gayord Project 180 segment, and Santa Fe Station Intermodal Hub.

3. "that could be avoided by making street car service incidental to the CC rather than a stop-gap measure to try and make the CC workable in a poor - but cheaper - location."

I guess that's where we disagree. On a personal level, I was bewildered when Russell Claus' (former Planning Director) plans were disregarded and we even went into a site selection process. I thought he and his department had put a great deal of thought into what they wanted Core 2 Shore to be. They readily admitted that they considered it a 25 - 50 year plan. But the Convention Center was always a considered a major "bookend" development to the east in that plan. Mayor Cornett also liked the site. I guess I don't consider "East Park" to be a poor location as you seem to. The OKC Boulevard is much wider than I would prefer. Way too much concrete. It can be and will probably be an unnecessary barrier by the sheer scale in width. But that can be remedied later. I want to stress that I am not publicly expressing a preference for the "East Park". As you eloquently expressed in you other post above, Bricktown is changing and it will continue to do well regardless of the selected site. Real estate broker Gary Gregory is really pushing for the "West Park" site on part of the Blumenthal Family and related consortium. I guess that site's scoring valuation largely depends on the decision maker's opinion on the importance of the proximity of that site and other western sites to Bricktown.

Regarding streetcar.... We (early streetcar supporters) always thought that wherever the Convention Center was downtown, it was important to connect to it. Originally there was no "Phase 1" or "Phase 2" proposed. Such concepts were created by Architectural Design Group to try to give the Oversight Board and City Council options on how to cash flow out all and build all of the MAPS projects. Several of us (on the transit Subcommittee) went those City Council meetings and raised hell. We wanted streetcar to be all one continuous project. It is a system. Segmenting a piece out simply for the cash flows of other projects seemed detrimental to the streetcar program to many of us. Well cash flows have been better than expected. Collections of sales tax have exceeded expectations. As with most Public Works Projects, MAPS is taking longer to design and build than expected. The relevance of a "Phase 2" to streetcar is decidedly irrelevant despite the City Staff's insistence that we acknowledge it's existence on paper and how we have been forced to approve contracting letting. Ironically however, the delays and minutia have positioned us well to help solve this problem of the Convention Center site and be relatively quickly and seamlessly integrated into the final designs for the overall plan. It is ironic. It was not planned this way. This situation is entirely circumstantial.

Based on feedback from reputable people, I think the City and consultants are seriously looking at the East Park site again. This is due to the good comps and relatively easy acquisition that they have had for the Park site. There doesn't seem to be broad support to actually take land away from the Park. I am not sure about how the other sites stand.

I have more details on streetcar route design concepts but would prefer to withhold those ideas until we have a better idea of whether these notions as to a scoring preference for "East Park" are true.

[Spartan]

So UP, how much will it cost in added track and additional ongoing operational budget to focus additional service at the CC to make up for poor connection to the rest of downtown? That number should absolutely be a part of the site selection formula, no matter whose budget it comes from. Those are real costs that could be avoided by making street car service incidental to the CC rather than a stop-gap measure to try and make the CC workable in a poor - but cheaper - location.

Thank you!! We are in total agreement about the convention center now. The streetcar can be a big part of a solution, although it isn't THE solution for getting to a CC.

[Edgar]

Very comprehensive numbers are available on a monthly basis from the CVB, online. They can be found at Oklahoma City, OK Tourism | Oklahoma City Visitors Bureau

Again, judging the performance of the convention business with completely inadequate facilities in place is like griping about how few major league sports events we held prior to the construction of the Chesapeake Arena (previously Ford Center), or how few rowing events we held before the damming of the North Canadian and construction of boathouses, or complaining about lousy shopping before there were decent retail centers in OKC, or a bad music scene when we had no decent music venues. It may seem corny and naive to say "if we build it they will come," but this has repeatedly worked for OKC.

Right now the CVB is performing admirably considering no adequate building to sell. They are blowing people away in the sports category, because we have venues. They would perform even better JUST in the sports category with an improved CC situation and better ability to block rooms. But we are also missing convention sales opportunities, local, regional AND national. This happens every month. If you would like to look at a fuller and more comprehensive breakdown of our upcoming meetings (and see how heavily we are relying on venues other than Cox), I would suggest you click here: ISSUU - Convention Calendar - May 2015 by Oklahoma City Convention & Visitors Bureau

It'd be entertaining to be in the board meeting when someone mentions OKC as a possibility for their annual convention.

[bchris02]

It'd be entertaining to be in the board meeting when someone mentions OKC as a possibility for their annual convention.

Agreed. This convention center, if built in the right location, over time will help dispel some of the negative perceptions people have about OKC. Just look at what the convention industry has done for Indianapolis, another "middle America" city.

[Just the facts]

Agreed. This convention center, if built in the right location, over time will help dispel some of the negative perceptions people have about OKC. Just look at what the convention industry has done for Indianapolis, another "middle America" city.

To be fair, Indianapolis has had positive name recognition for 40 years. So did Milwaukee, Dallas, Denver, Atlanta, Seattle, Phoenix, San Diego, Boston, Miami, and Cincinnati. Now if OKC could get a #1 TV drama or sitcom for 10 years we could follow that route.

[ljbab728]

It didn't last 10 years and was never number one, but we did have this.

[Just the facts]

Yea - but it came on cable and got nowhere close to #1, lasted only 2 seasons, and wasn't exactly good PR for OKC due to the subject matter. People loved Happy Days, Lavern & Shirley, Golden Girls, Dallas, Dynasty, etc... - they were cultural icons.

[ljbab728]

Yea - but it came on cable and got nowhere close to #1, lasted only 2 seasons, and wasn't exactly good PR for OKC due to the subject matter. People loved Happy Days, Lavern & Shirley, Golden Girls, Dallas, Dynasty, etc... - they were cultural icons.

Of course the shows you mention are all from many years ago and the norm for subject matter has changed considerably. The Golden Girls, Dallas, and Dynasty had some subject matter that wasn't exactly Happy Days material. But after this commercial, let's return to the Convention Center discussion.

[bchris02]

To be fair, Indianapolis has had positive name recognition for 40 years. So did Milwaukee, Dallas, Denver, Atlanta, Seattle, Phoenix, San Diego, Boston, Miami, and Cincinnati. Now if OKC could get a #1 TV drama or sitcom for 10 years we could follow that route.

You make a good point here. I often blame OKC's national perception on the low quality of life here in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but it may be more rooted in the fact there was never a beloved TV show or movie that publicized OKC like most other major cities nor does the city have a cultural or musical legacy that people identify it with. There has been plenty of negative national press over the years though. The Thunder has been great for PR but perceptions don't change overnight. It will be nice when people on the coast or in big cities don't say things like "I'm sorry" or "do they have paved roads there?" when I tell them I live in OKC.

Tying this back to the convention center, this will be great for perception because it will get people here and most of them will be seeing the best the city has to offer. Too many people who claim they have "been here" probably have only driven through on I-40 or maybe haven't been here in many years so they remember a city that was a lot closer to the stereotype than today's OKC is.

[dankrutka]

When discussing perceptions of Oklahoma and Oklahomans... How can you not mention Grapes of Wrath? Perceptions go way deeper than sitcoms.

[bchris02]

When discussing perceptions of Oklahoma and Oklahomans... How can you not mention Grapes of Wrath? Perceptions go way deeper than sitcoms.

I agree. I would say the Grapes of Wrath helped shape the national perception of Oklahoma and unfortunately it wasn't in a positive way. It's because of the Grapes of Wrath that people to this day think the entire state is a dusty, desolate prairie. Funny thing is, the Grapes of Wrath was very geographically inaccurate. The heart of the dust bowl was out in the panhandle where Oklahoma, Colorado, Texas, and New Mexico meet. It was NOT in Sallisaw, eastern Oklahoma, or even Oklahoma City.

[dankrutka]

It's also an unfortunate stereotype that's rooted in the dehumanization of the poor. Because the Joads, the Okies, are actually hardworking, good people. That the stereotype was reinforced probably pissed Steinbeck off...

[ljbab728]

And how about that convention center?