Alley North (Old Dolese Headquarters)

[LocoAko]

People are focused on the layout because the layout is bad.

Correct. Even if you truly do need THAT many parking spaces (sigh), why can't they be wrapped around the back? Why can't there be a more urban design despite being a chain restaurant? Sure this is outside of the downtown review zone but it is mere blocks from the streetcar, which should be promoting walkable development. Walking past massive parking lots is just not appealing, and it seems obvious from the originally proposed plans that the developers know this spot deserves better design. Sigh.

[SouthOKC]

Correct. Even if you truly do need THAT many parking spaces (sigh), why can't they be wrapped around the back? Why can't there be a more urban design despite being a chain restaurant? Sure this is outside of the downtown review zone but it is mere blocks from the streetcar, which should be promoting walkable development. Walking past massive parking lots is just not appealing, and it seems obvious from the originally proposed plans that the developers know this spot deserves better design. Sigh.

The reason is a successful business model trumps someone dream of an urban utopia. We can have great urban design before the market demands it and potentially have shuttered businesses lining the streets. Unfortunately, the reality is people come with a dream and no business plan as is the case with everyone focused/complaining about surface parking.

The CBD is as close as we have to a NYC environment and most places are closed on Sunday. Due to the inconvenience and lack of foot traffic at this point. It’s ludicrous to have people hitting up the contact us form of a successful business that wants to locate a restaurant in an otherwise empty field and suggesting they know more about how they should layout their location than the operators.

The layout is bad? Why, because it’s aesthetically displeasing to someone who desires urban design outside of a densely packed area. Tell me again how they’ll pay their employees and not end up an empty building with the new plans everyone desires…

[Dob Hooligan]

I urge anyone complaining to check maps and drive the area with your own 2 eyes. I did that Friday, on the way to the baseball game. Broadway north of 11th isn't urban dense, and isn't going to be anytime soon. 13th and Broadway has an old Used Car Sales office that has been converted to some financial business, with about 100 parking spaces for a 4,000 ft building. 16th and Broadway isn't realistically part of the urban core, and has no reason to be. I-235 and the railroad tracks wall off the east side and the Heritage Hills East neighborhood blocks the west. Heritage Hills East does not allow entrance from Broadway, and only allows exit to the south at Broadway. I don't think the streetcar will ever be closer than 3 blocks away, and there is almost zero need for walkability. And I'm not aware of any plans to make Alley North so dense that it creates a true walkable area that is economically sustaining.

[Jake]

And I'm not aware of any plans to make Alley North so dense that it creates a true walkable area that is economically sustaining.

The initial renderings for Alley North showed exactly this so getting a giant surface parking lot instead is what is making a lot of people upset.

[BDP]

So TIF should only be given to projects under some design review committee? Seems a bit unfair, and elitist, to me. But what do I know.

Yes. TIF or any other public incentive should not be unconditional. That's not elitist. That's just sensible. I don't know what you do or don't know.

[dankrutka]

The reason is a successful business model trumps someone dream of an urban utopia. We can have great urban design before the market demands it and potentially have shuttered businesses lining the streets. Unfortunately, the reality is people come with a dream and no business plan as is the case with everyone focused/complaining about surface parking.

There is absolutely no good reason to think that shifting the parking behind the building will hurt business.

[okcrun]

I urge anyone complaining to check maps and drive the area with your own 2 eyes. I did that Friday, on the way to the baseball game. Broadway north of 11th isn't urban dense, and isn't going to be anytime soon. 13th and Broadway has an old Used Car Sales office that has been converted to some financial business, with about 100 parking spaces for a 4,000 ft building. 16th and Broadway isn't realistically part of the urban core, and has no reason to be. I-235 and the railroad tracks wall off the east side and the Heritage Hills East neighborhood blocks the west. Heritage Hills East does not allow entrance from Broadway, and only allows exit to the south at Broadway. I don't think the streetcar will ever be closer than 3 blocks away, and there is almost zero need for walkability. And I'm not aware of any plans to make Alley North so dense that it creates a true walkable area that is economically sustaining.

Same could have been said about midtown around 15 years ago. Just because it isn't urban dense now doesn't mean it should be open season to do whatever. There is only so much land in the urban core to develop. Nearly every vacant lot in that vicinity has plans on being developed.

[Dob Hooligan]

Same could have been said about midtown around 15 years ago. Just because it isn't urban dense now doesn't mean it should be open season to do whatever. There is only so much land in the urban core to develop. Nearly every vacant lot in that vicinity has plans on being developed.

Look at the area personally, study the maps, and then tell us how this is such a precious part of the urban core. It just is not an area of density within the next 50 years.

[Dob Hooligan]

The initial renderings for Alley North showed exactly this so getting a giant surface parking lot instead is what is making a lot of people upset.

The initial renderings would not make a dense area at the level it would be self contained, walkable, vibrant area.

[Jake]

Same could have been said about midtown around 15 years ago. Just because it isn't urban dense now doesn't mean it should be open season to do whatever. There is only so much land in the urban core to develop. Nearly every vacant lot in that vicinity has plans on being developed.

The same could have been said for Bricktown 30 years ago.

[Jake]

The initial renderings would not make a dense area at the level it would be self contained, walkable, vibrant area.

This would have been denser and more walkable than like 90+% of all developments in the city.

Although I am now looking forward to the impending Tex Mex restaurant with surface parking announcement now.

[SouthOKC]

This would have been denser and more walkable than like 90+% of all developments in the city.

Although I am now looking forward to the impending Tex Mex restaurant with surface parking announcement now.

Since we’re throwing around bad examples. It sounds like most people want Steelyard 2.0??? It’s a pleasure walking past empty and vacant store fronts. How about Devon Tower retail that makes for such an inviting stroll….

Please point me to the area of Midtown that isn’t loaded with surface parking…

[Jake]

Since we’re throwing around bad examples. It sounds like most people want Steelyard 2.0??? It’s a pleasure walking past empty and vacant store fronts. How about Devon Tower retail that makes for such an inviting stroll….

Please point me to the area of Midtown that isn’t loaded with surface parking…

I’m confused as to what the argument is? Since Midtown and the CBD have areas that aren’t very walkable that means a suburban style development in the core like this is okay? The reason those places aren’t super fun to walk in the first place (although Devon may be a bad example being by the Botanical Gardens and all) is because of canyons of parking garages and surface lots like this one.

[bamarsha]

How is a restaurant supposed to stay in business if they can't get lots of customers? Sure, there will be a few people that can walk there, but this is OKC, not NYC. A vast majority of people here drive (in OKC, not this forum, apparently). My guess, it will be many years before the split is even 50/50 walking/driving. I am glad a restaurant of this caliber came to OKC (even though I don't like seafood and won't likely visit often). I would say it's a big risk for an "up-scale" restaurant to be surrounded on three sides by Opportunity Zones. They probably should have put it in a nicer part of the city if you ask me, but... time will tell.

[cinnamonjock]

I wouldn't argue that this place shouldn't include surface parking. I would argue that it shouldn't be in a big donut surrounding the building.

[bamarsha]

I wouldn't argue that this place shouldn't include surface parking. I would argue that it shouldn't be in a big donut surrounding the building.

You could push it more north (toward 16th), but with the easement to the west (no building) and the railroad to the east (need buffer from that noise), what are their real options?

[cinnamonjock]

Simplest thing to do would be push it to the southern edge of that lot so that it is more homogenous with the rest of the development. The ideal would be to make the building a little wider and an little less deep so that it fits between broadway and the easement.

[ManAboutTown]

Simplest thing to do would be push it to the southern edge of that lot so that it is more homogenous with the rest of the development. The ideal would be to make the building a little wider and an little less deep so that it fits between broadway and the easement.

It's highly doubtful that this will happen, as there does not appear to be enough space west of the easement.

[dankrutka]

How is a restaurant supposed to stay in business if they can't get lots of customers? Sure, there will be a few people that can walk there, but this is OKC, not NYC. A vast majority of people here drive (in OKC, not this forum, apparently). My guess, it will be many years before the split is even 50/50 walking/driving. I am glad a restaurant of this caliber came to OKC (even though I don't like seafood and won't likely visit often). I would say it's a big risk for an "up-scale" restaurant to be surrounded on three sides by Opportunity Zones. They probably should have put it in a nicer part of the city if you ask me, but... time will tell.

No one is saying most of their customers must walk there. You can add parking in many ways and maintain a more walkable environment. People have pointed out how to do it throughout this thread.

[OkieBerto]

All this talk about walking reminds me of the good ol' days in the mall parking lots when people would slow roll waiting for someone to leave. Eventually we are all going to be walking even if we bring our cars. That parking lot is huge.

[BDP]

The same could have been said for Bricktown 30 years ago.

The same was said about bricktown. And midtown, and plaza district, and paseo, etc.

They would never work and the reason given was usually a combination of: 'not enough parking' and 'buildings are too old', with sprinkles of 'Oklahomans don't walk' and 'that area is scary'.

[Thunderbolt]

This would have been denser and more walkable than like 90+% of all developments in the city.

Although I am now looking forward to the impending Tex Mex restaurant with surface parking announcement now.

Would have? Isn't most of this development still moving forward as designed? From Pete's coverage and the Oklahoman stories it sounds like the vast majority of this remains the same (dense, walkable, etc), except for Pappadeaux island on the northern-most lot.

[PhiAlpha]

No one is saying most of their customers must walk there. You can add parking in many ways and maintain a more walkable environment. People have pointed out how to do it throughout this thread.

Yeah I agree…I don’t really understand why these are being treated as mutually exclusive. Stick the thing on the SW corner of the property or at 16th and Broadway (or really anywhere fronting Broadway) and add as much parking as you want on the rest of the tract. That doesn’t change anything other than just making it slightly more walkable and create some continuity between the urban development we’re supposedly getting to the south as well as AA.

It’s their property and is outside of any design review district so by all means they can do whatever they want (and on a personal note…hell yeah! I love Pappadeaux and all of their concepts!) but a slightly altered site plan seems like a win for everyone.

[Jake]

Would have? Isn't most of this development still moving forward as designed? From Pete's coverage and the Oklahoman stories it sounds like the vast majority of this remains the same (dense, walkable, etc), except for Pappadeaux island on the northern-most lot.

Hopefully so, although like you mentioned the giant parking island impacts things. Who knows, maybe the rest is built entirely as the renderings show and The Hub development takes off next to it too. Then the area will have some nice density and the Pappadeux inexplicably not being on the corner will seem even more bizarre.

[David]

Would have? Isn't most of this development still moving forward as designed? From Pete's coverage and the Oklahoman stories it sounds like the vast majority of this remains the same (dense, walkable, etc), except for Pappadeaux island on the northern-most lot.

Given their willingness to compromise on having any amount of urban design for the Pappadeaux portion of the development I would not bet on the rest of it being built as originally proposed either.