General Urban Development

[Spartan]

Spartan, your tag line is all wrong. You are ALWAYS enthusiastic ... about sniping and criticising!

Why do you take it personally that we would like to see some minor tweaks to what would then be an incredible project for the entire community?

[mcca7596]

As for elitist - I'll leave that to the people who support segregated zoning.

Nice one.

[Skyline]

Why do you take it personally that we would like to see some minor tweaks to what would then be an incredible project for the entire community?

I'm curious,,as to when the "JTF-Spartan" development company will be staring up?

[Just the facts]

Maybe some people just support plutocracy and don't even realize it. TK is paying for it so it must be right and is beyond question.

[Spartan]

I'm curious,,as to when the "JTF-Spartan" development company will be staring up?

Probably never, we would rarely agree on much. But if you're asking why people don't put their money where their mouth is, they do. There are a lot of people who practice what they preach when it comes to urban design standards, and they profit by making friends rather than enemies out of the many developers who routinely shirk design standards.

This is why design review is the name of the game. The sooner we get developer buy-in to design principles and have a clear understanding amongst developers of how the design review process is supposed to work, the more successful it will be in the long run. If you're supportive of the current design review system (or at least how it's supposed to work), then you should be supportive of it being applied fairly.

[Skyline]

Probably never, we would rarely agree on much.

Lol, true as I wasn't sure if you two would agree on whose name I should put first for the title either.

[Spartan]

I am actually very insulted that you went with his. I think I've been here longer, or we both came around the same year (2002?ish)

YIKES.

[Just the facts]

A man can accomplish a lot if he doesn't care who gets the credit. I have no problem working behind the scenes without any public recognition.

[ljbab728]

Me too. I wish we had come along sooner before we had to create improvement districts for I-240 and Meridian and spend billion fixing downtown which was working just fine before urban sprawl happened. Surely you aren't trying to argue that suburban design and sprawl is the best model for growth. Don't you find it sad and stupid that we have to spend so much money rebuilding stuff that was already built once?

As for elitist - I'll leave that to the people who support segregated zoning.

Kerry, the improvements being planned for I240 and Meridian are hardly going to create anything close to your idea of an urban paradise. There isn't an area in any city in the world that, at some point, doesn't need some upgrades, refurbishing, or replanning. Especially for Meridian, it evolved peacemeal because of it's proximity to the airport. You couldn't have moved the airport closer to the city to change that. Not everything can be in an urban area and the airport and it's environ's have nothing to do with urban sprawl. You occasionally make some good points but that isn't one of them.

[Just the facts]

The point I was trying to make is that the maintenance cost of sustaining suburbia is higher than it was to build it in the first place. No one would ever put up with that in their personal life. Would you spend more money maintaining your TV than you spent to buy it new? How about a house or car? But when it comes to a City, the sky is the limit on maintenance.

Things are built as cheaply as possible and when the owners get tired of maintenance cost they move to a new part of town and build everything new again, leaving the area they built 20 years ago to fall into ruin. Then this process repeats every 20 years. It becomes nothing but rolling ghetto.

The problem is the City (funded 100% by taxpayers) still has to maintain the roads, sewer lines, provide police and fire protection, code enforcement, etc. no matter how little tax revenue an area generates. It is a losing battle but for some reason people still want to 'grow' that way. To quote the W.O.P.R. computer, the only way to win is not to play.

[Just the facts]

Explain density pricing again.

[edcrunk]

I'm going to take the uncomfortable position and defend our ideal development standards. Compliance with good form in a highly-dense urban district as the OUHSC undeniably is isn't something that would devastate this project. It would make it better.

Nobody is saying that Toby Keith ever claimed to assert this design as the most pro-urban, so the issue isn't a matter of confrontation. It's a matter of applying a fair standard to all projects that fall within an urban district. For example, the OBI project should have also been held to a better standard.

I'm not complaining about how UGLY and bland the OBI building was (and this hotel actually has a kinda cool aesthetic), but instead pointing out the negative site layout. Parking can be just as functional in the back of a building. Fixing that should be cost neutral, and possibly even cheaper for moving automobile egress/ingress away from the main vantage point.

Spartan, I love you brother, but I think you're wrong on this one. I am the drive coordinator and Valet attendant at the Integris Cancer Center and ProCure building (Memorial & McArthur) and believe me that the parking and the the drop off are placed for the ease of the patient to be dropped off and picked up. I am confident the design is intentional in that regard.

[Dubya61]

I absolutely think that Spartan and JTF should start up a business together, or at least team up from their respective Starbucks in Canada and Florida to provide free design review for all OKC construction projects. There could be a Factual Spartan thread where developers (the good ones, you know, who really get it) could submit their proposed construction projects and Spartan and JTF could rip 'em to shreds with their little urban design halos shining brightly, lighting the way ahead for we few misguided slobs who choose to not live in an urban environment. or don't know the sidewalk setback target zone (no pun intended, of course, JTF -- I would never choose to liken your Father-in-law's Target store to something good -- even I know to spit and clear out my mouth every time I mention that American retailer).

This is a development forum, zrfdude? That must explain why it seems to be dominated by urbanism-man1 and architect2 (en masse and under multiple pseudonyms, I'm sure) who weigh in ad nauseum on every brick and EIFS construct yelling "Urban Design" from the rooftops, so that we will all see that OKC is a true urban mecca, or could be if we would only listen to them.

Spartan, I don't take it personally that you would propose a few "minor tweaks to what would then be an incredible project for the entire community." I'll bet, however, that the more productive way to focus energy to fixing what you see as a problem would be to get the medical district to establish a design requirement for new buildings in a certain area. Someone alludes to an OHC Master Plan (2007-2022). Does this building meet those design criteria? Good. No? It should be amended. Sure, in post 12, your stated that the parking should be moved (possibly even at no cost while in the design stage), and then you start taking it personally, defending urban design and slamming OKC (post 16) . Your diatribe in post 46 seemed to liken the design standard laid down by this project as poisoning the district around the HSC as well as making all of us obese. I basically agree with your points, Spartan. Its just that I strongly dislike your condescension and vitriol from on high. I don't take it personally, I just think that your tag line about lacking enthusiasm IS all wrong, as I stated in my comment. I don't think anybody on this board would say you don't know your facts (with the possible exception of defining OUHSC as a highly dense urban environment) and theory. I just don't know why you're never content to speak your mind and let it be. Instead you follow it up with venom and spite when anybody dares question your dictates of urban design.

No, JTF, I don't find it sad and stupid that we have to spend so much money rebuilding stuff that was already built once? As I've stated before, I'm a huge fan of free market capitalism. The glory of capitalism, is that failure doesn't mean the end of the road. Rebuilding is ALWAYS an option, and sometimes a better thing than the original. The ideal city was built several times, and just didn't catch on (see Brasilia, Brazil). History is good. A checkered history is sometimes better. Oh, and to save you the time of your knee-jerk reaction to my love of capitalism, I'll go ahead and make it here: "That's not capitalism when you let the money dictate the design, that's plutocracy." My knee-jerk reaction to that? Plutocracy? Just because someone chooses to build a building of their own design in an area void of design restrictions doesn't mean that the rich are going to run the world someday. Tuck that class-warfare word back in your pocket and bring it out when Montgomery Burns creates his super PAC to fund his election.

If it makes you feel any better, JTF, I also agree with you in my dislike of suburban sprawl. I was horrified to find out recently that I'm living within OKC city limits, now. I don't think it was like that when I moved there. I probably should have questioned my realtor a lot more, but there's a whole 'nother story there. Sid, I agree with you there, too, but did you ever consider that some of us out there don't want city services? Is there some reason why OKC has to spread out? Maybe there's something wrong with the municipal government, and not those of us who keep having to move farther and farther out to escape the dictates of the city.

[Just the facts]

You live in the outer fringe and hate urban sprawl, do you live on a farm?

[Dubya61]

SUBurban sprawl, and yes, I do.

[Just the facts]

SUBurban sprawl, and yes, I do.

Sorry, I missed the "sub" portion. It seems we are mostly in agreement. As long as the urban core of OKC is scaled to the automobile then sprawl (urban, suburban, ex-urban) is going to continue. Personally, I think the rural countryside should be saved for open space, farms, and nature. But in order for that to happen urban land-use has to be maximized. You can't maximize urban space and scale it to the car at the same time.

[Larry OKC]

I just went throught this very discussion with my wife. We finally found a place we can agree to move to and started looking at housing size. She was concerned there wouldn't be enough cabinet space to hold thing like the bread maker. I told we aren't supposed to have a bread maker. If we want fresh bread we are supposed to go down to the corner bakery and buy it. Likewise with a cake. We go buy a cake from the bakery, not make it out of a box.

Doesn't that play against the whole sustainability/self-sufficient mantra?

[Just the facts]

Doesn't that play against the whole sustainability/self-sufficient mantra?

As long as the local bakery isn't owned by the government then where is the inconsistancy? Society, in all forms, is a blessing.

let us suppose a small number of persons settled in some sequestered part of the earth, unconnected with the rest, they will then represent the first peopling of any country, or of the world. In this state of natural liberty, society will be their first thought. A thousand motives will excite them thereto, the strength of one man is so unequal to his wants, and his mind so unfitted for perpetual solitude, that he is soon obliged to seek assistance and relief of another, who in his turn requires the same. Four or five united would be able to raise a tolerable dwelling in the midst of a wilderness, but one man might labor out the common period of life without accomplishing any thing; when he had felled his timber he could not remove it, nor erect it after it was removed; hunger in the mean time would urge him from his work, and every different want call him a different way. Disease, nay even misfortune would be death, for though neither might be mortal, yet either would disable him from living, and reduce him to a state in which he might rather be said to perish than to die.

[Larry OKC]

Shouldn't you be making your bread & cake at home instead of buying something pre-made? LOL

[Just the facts]

Shouldn't you be making your bread & cake at home instead of buying something pre-made? LOL

Why bake for 2 hours when I can work at job for 30 minutes and earn enough money to buy the cake already made by a professional? I think maybe you are confusing the concept of individualism. Man was not meant to be an island in perpetual isolation from one another. We were meant to function as a society with each member performing to the best of their abilites in their chosen line of work. This is oppposed to a government that requires (and in many cases - manadate) the interaction. To paraphrase Thomas Paine - you are confusing society with government. Individualism doesn't mean that a person must operate in total independence - it means they are free to choose their own path and reap the rewards or suffer the punishment of their actions.

[Rover]

. To paraphrase Thomas Paine - you are confusing society with government. Individualism doesn't mean that a person must operate in total independence - it means they are free to choose their own path and reap the rewards or suffer the punishment of their actions.

Unless of course they choose to live outside of downtown. Those are evil people. Right JTF?

[Just the facts]

Unless of course they choose to live outside of downtown. Those are evil people. Right JTF?

People can live where ever they want, they should just have to pay the full cost of that decision. As for downtown vs 'not downtown', there are several areas in OKC that are coming close to restoring their traditional neighborhood model - so no, you don't have to live downtown to live an urban lifestyle.

As for the evil comment, I live in a subdivision and don't consider myself evil. Unfortunately, when I bought my home I was unaware of the many downsides to sprawl. For instance, I saw living on a cul-de-sac as a safe environment to raise children. I know see how that decision has led to a suspended state of childhood as they have gotten older.

My oldest son is 13 and he has never gone to the store by himself because the nearest store in 3 miles away (6 miles round trip). When I was 13 I routinely ran errands for my mom - taking deposits to the bank, picking up bread and milk at the store, walking to the post office for stamps, getting dog food, and even walking to our local restaurant to eat when she was working late. My kids do none of that - not because they are lazy or don't want to - but because they can't. Now that I see the error of my ways I am doing what I can to correct my mistakes.

[Larry OKC]

never mind...

[Rover]

Sorry, I missed the "sub" portion. It seems we are mostly in agreement. As long as the urban core of OKC is scaled to the automobile then sprawl (urban, suburban, ex-urban) is going to continue. Personally, I think the rural countryside should be saved for open space, farms, and nature. But in order for that to happen urban land-use has to be maximized. You can't maximize urban space and scale it to the car at the same time.

But, until there is proper infrastructure in place, ie mass trans, there has to be an allowance for cars. Normally development follows infrastructure, not the other way around.

[kevinpate]

ah, fergitabout da parking format and lift a red solo cup high for the overall effort. I had thought the fundraising was farther along than it seems to be, but it'll get there.