Core to Shore

[Spartan]

Listening to this podcast, the whole idea of the survey presented in the meeting seems misguided.

Basically, they went to a bunch of downtown power players and asked for opinions of the streetcar (among other things) and you can tell that many of them are either completely uninformed or out-right against the system. They came back with comments "What is the need for this system? What is the projected ridership? What is the profile of the riders? What is the economic impact?"

I bet you those kinds of questions wouldn't be asked about the convention center...

[Pete]

The survey actually solicited input on the CC, Central Park and the streetcar -- all under the umbrella of Core to Shore but broken out separately.

The comments about the streetcar were almost all negative and/or in the vein of "why are we doing this?". For the other two they were mainly positive with some small suggestions.


I'll link the findings later, as the city site seems to be on the fritz right now.

[kevinpate]

I bet you those kinds of questions wouldn't be asked about the convention center...

Nah, they asked the same questions, but each had the same answer as well: "who cares. We want one and we're gonna get one."

[Pete]

Listening to the presentation by Rick Cain of COPTA he did say they had $45 million in debt before selling the City Center garages and now Broadway-Kerr.

Now they have no debt they are finalizing a study that seems to indicate there will be the need for two CBD garages just for downtown workers and probably a couple of more (Bricktown and AA) to support economic development in those areas.

Mentioned Robinson between 5th & 6th as a possible location but nothing has been finalized as of yet.

[Just the facts]

Basically, they went to a bunch of downtown power players and asked for opinions of the streetcar (among other things) and you can tell that many of them are either completely uninformed or out-right against the system. They came back with comments "What is the need for this system? What is the projected ridership? What is the profile of the riders? What is the economic impact?"

All these questions are completely silly at this point. MAPS 3 has long been approved and the streetcar was the most popular part of it. Why even go out and solicit such questions at this point? It just puts negative rhetoric out to the public which in turn causes more negativity.

If I was trying to build a convention center that is going to cost 2 or 3 time as much as I have available I would be trying to cast as much doubt on other projects as I could.

[Spartan]

Nah, they asked the same questions, but each had the same answer as well: "who cares. We want one and we're gonna get one."

Yeah, either that or the evil laugh..

[Steve]

It's interesting how these processes get shaped as they go along...

[BBatesokc]

Original Core to Shore assumptions face scrutiny in new report
Consultants overseeing master planning for MAPS 3 have completed a report that calls into question several aspects of the Core to Shore plan, including original suggestions that the area will attract retail and residential development.


Read more: http://newsok.com/original-core-to-s...#ixzz1pqTlA53K

http://newsok.com/original-core-to-s...rticle/3659676

[betts]

Original Core to Shore assumptions face scrutiny in new report
Consultants overseeing master planning for MAPS 3 have completed a report that calls into question several aspects of the Core to Shore plan, including original suggestions that the area will attract retail and residential development.


Read more: http://newsok.com/original-core-to-s...#ixzz1pqTlA53K

http://newsok.com/original-core-to-s...rticle/3659676

I never saw the areas adjacent to the park as extremely appealing for retail, but anyone who thinks that property adjacent to the park won't be appealing for residential hasn't thought this through and likely lives in the suburbs. Town homes adjacent to the park would be enough for me to consider moving, and would likely appeal to families more than current downtown housing. The new school will add to interest in living downtown for families and land adjacent to the park is close. We have yet to see what the appeal of an upscale tower downtown would be, but the security of a tower with doorman could well also appeal to people who've not yet seen downtown housing that they like. We're not necessarily talking next year. The Core to Shore plan was always a long term one. But I would move there next year, as a little blight adjacent doesn't scare me.

What I think is a mistake is spending any money to wrap the substation. I would wait to see what the convention center land sells for. If the price is close to that figure, I'd start thinking about marketing that land to a developer. That piece of property is too valuable to waste $10 million on a disguise. Of course, I would put the convention center there, so what do I know?

[Popsy]

Somewhat amazing to me that Steve's article left out the part about numerous stakeholders questioning the validity of the streetcar. After listening to city staff and and consulting firms bring the streetcar committee up to date and the committee members reaction to the update one would think that would be part of the article or a seperate article in itself. In my view the concerns over development in the core to shore are easily remedied. Just run the streetcar line down Robinson, behind Union Station, then back north on Walker, encircling the park and development will be generated at a frantic pace. At least I have been led to believe that would be the case if the streetcar enthusiats are to be believed and I have no reason not to believe them. Midtown development will grow on it's own as it has already started. Will the steetcar committee suggest this to win over those doubting stakeholders or are they fearful their claims of development following the tracks could very well be a ruse? Please tell us what you think JTF.

[Just the facts]

Success of the streetcar around the Concention Center will depend on if the CC can deliver the promised 900% increase in out of state attendance. Or was that a ruse to win over stakeholders to support adding the CC to MAPS III. Personally, I think the streetcar can come closer to spuring development along the park than the CC can come to seeing a 900% increase in out-of-state attendance.

However, I would love to see Core to Shore developed as a high density pedestrian/mass transit area. I say the city should allocate extra funds to extend the streetcar to this area as part of phase 1.

[Popsy]

Why, JTF, should extra funds be extended when the Midtown route can be dropped and the money from that be used in core to shore. After all, Midtown was never mentioned on the ballot (it was to be a downtown issue) or in the fixed guideway study as only downtown was mentioned. Also, what caused you to throw in thoughts about the CC as my question to you never mentioned the CC. I just wanted to know your or any others opinions about the core to shore area be subject to development following the rails. Could you direct your thoughts to whether or not develpment would follow the rail in the core to shore area?

[Larry OKC]

Lets not get into what was and wasn't on the ballot (since nothing specific was on the ballot)...and they were already getting panned that MAPS 3 was DT centric again (it was more of a hybrid of MAPS & MAPS 4 Kids). But IIRC, it was UrbanPioneer that mentioned the Midtown spur was a direct result of the Council wanting to get more mileage as it were out of the Streetcar and not just a DT circulator. However, I agree it was a given that there would be a tie-in with the Streetcars and as many of the other MAPS & MAPS 3 projects as possible. Running the length and/or looping around the Park & the Union Station a logical Streetcar stop

[Popsy]

Larry, I think I might disagree with you here as a vague memory of the ballot referenced the projects being touted, which included a downtown streetcar system. Perhaps you know of a website that has a copy of the ballot.. My point here is that provided development follows the rail as streetcar activists insist it does, would placement of rail in that area better serve the city by enhancing and speeding up development in core to shore and would that not be better for the city than a jaunt up to 13th street in midtown? I would also be interested in knowing if any of the streetcar committee members live near the proposed midtown route.

[Larry OKC]

Popsy: You may be thinking of the original MAPS ballot which did list the projects (with a surprising amount of detail), MAPS 3 did not list ANY of the projects, basically defined the beginning/ending dates of the tax, the amount of the tax and the stipulation that the money be spent of the vague term "capital improvements". The actual Ordinance went into great verbiage defining it but was so inclusive that it could honestly be spent on just about whatever the Council decides at the time. The Ordinance didn't list the projects either. There was the infamous "Letter of Intent" that did list the projects, but that "Intent" wasn't even mentioned or referenced on the Ballot/Ordinance. It is legally non-binding and as we found out with the courts decision with Bass Pro, the Council can legally change their intent at any time.

I don't disagree with the point of your post...continue...

[Urban Pioneer]

Lets just say that you will then both be pleased with the new route about to be released from our committee for approval. C2S and Deep Deuce are now proposed to be serviced and there is no proposal for two separate stages. More to come shortly.

[Popsy]

Larry, I wasn't confusing it with the original Maps, but could easily have confused it with the letter of intent being a part of the ballot. I think I can safely say that the letter of intent referenced it being a downtown streetcar and core to shore will be a part of downtown as will bricktown.

[Larry OKC]

If one of those is me, that is way kewl....

[mcca7596]

I say the city should allocate extra funds to extend the streetcar to this area as part of phase 1.

You mean potential federal funds, correct?

[Tier2City]

The exact text of the letter of intent (don't laugh, Larry) reads:

2. A new rail-based streetcar system to service the inner city and/or to service other areas within The City of Oklahoma City, plus funding for other transit infrastructure as appropriate, such as connections to other rail-based systems and/or a transit hub.

[mcca7596]

Midtown development will grow on it's own as it has already started.

The streetcar will just make Midtown that much more viable for downtown living and more dense. There is nothing to leverage right now with Core to Shore in regards to the streetcar, other than the park.

I think even if the streetcar concentrated on CTS, it would take it 20 years to just become what Midtown is now. Whereas, if the streetcar services Midtown, it and Deep Deuce could be in 20 years where CTS is going to be in 50+ years (if that makes sense).

[Urban Pioneer]

The Wednesday MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee Meeting... Strong discussion and a formal response to the Core to Shore Study.

http://soundcloud.com/moderntransitp...maps-3-transit

[Urban Pioneer]

We were forced to discuss this again at length.

http://soundcloud.com/moderntransitproject-okc/

[Spartan]

What was the outcome of the last formal response?

[BoulderSooner]

What was the outcome of the last formal response?

received by the maps 3 board .. goes with core to shore study to the council meeting today