Ford Center improvements up for March 4 vote

[Patrick]

That's funny. I don't recall anyone saying that the Ford Center needed renovations until after Bennett & Co. bought the Sonics. Let's face it, we're getting duped by the Sonics' owners and the mayor is in on it. Don't fall for this scandal. Vote no on March 4th and let the real benefactors pay for it. They have never said they won't. They're just trying to see if we're stupid enough to pay for it first.

VOTE NO MARCH 4th!

This shows your ignorance. Bennett hasn't even mentioned the Ford Center, and the Sonics' owners aren't even in on this. The NBA and Stern have suggested that our $89 million arena wouldn't compete well with $400 million arenas in the league. Mick Cornett listened, and suggested that we try to improve the Ford Center. Still, even with the improvements, it won't be the best arena in the league, but at least these improvements will make it somewhat competitive, and it will show the NBA team owners that we will support a team.

Voting NO on March 4th, is a vote against your city. It will stop all of the momentum we've gained from MAPS, and we'll be the laughingstock for years to come. Just think....a city that could've become major league, but chose not to, and fell into disrepair as a result.

[solitude]

This shows your ignorance. Bennett hasn't even mentioned the Ford Center, and the Sonics' owners aren't even in on this. The NBA and Stern have suggested that our $89 million arena wouldn't compete well with $400 million arenas in the league. Mick Cornett listened, and suggested that we try to improve the Ford Center. Still, even with the improvements, it won't be the best arena in the league, but at least these improvements will make it somewhat competitive, and it will show the NBA team owners that we will support a team.

Voting NO on March 4th, is a vote against your city. It will stop all of the momentum we've gained from MAPS, and we'll be the laughingstock for years to come. Just think....a city that could've become major league, but chose not to, and fell into disrepair as a result.

Our future does not depend on the NBA. That's dangerous thinking. Even boosters of this agree with that. It would obviously help, but our city will not be a laughingstock and fall into disrepair if we don't have the NBA in town. Also, surely you don't really think Clay Bennet has not been involved in this?

[SouthsideSooner]

I'm starting to really worry about the vote, when I initially thought it would pass easily.

I work in retail and talk to alot of people every day.

We live in a sound bite, catch phrase society and I'm hearing way to much " MAPS for millionaires" like opinions. When pressed further, I find that people are ill-informed and are basing thier opinions on false assumptions.

I'm afraid that there isn't going to have to be an organized opposition to oppose this for it to fail.

This is anything but a lock...

[andy157]

Our future does not depend on the NBA. That's dangerous thinking. Even boosters of this agree with that. It would obviously help, but our city will not be a laughingstock and fall into disrepair if we don't have the NBA in town. Also, surely you don't really think Clay Bennet has not been involved in this?

solitude, well said. If in fact this Citys future is solely dependant on the NBA, then we are in big trouble. If in fact this Citys forward momentum comes to a screeching halt should this vote fail, that doesn't say alot about our current momentum.

To insinuate that this City will fall into disrepair, or even worse, dispair, without the NBA is not only a dangerous way of thinking, it comes across to me as a defeatist way of thinking. To say the NBA/ Stern only made suggestions on things we could do, so we could become more competitive, not so, they made absolute demands. Lets not guild the lilly here, it is what it is. The owners, the B.O.G., Stern, they are all in this together. For the owners to blame Stern and/or the B.O.G. while they deny any culpability for these demands I find laughable, and insulting.

[Kerry]

Andy157 - when did the owners blame Stern or deny culpability? I missed that one. When MAPS started in 1993 it's primary goal was to improve the quality of life in OKC. Attracting an NBA/NHL team was not THE goal of the initiative, but it was a milestone. I guess I just don't under the opposition to funding the arena improvements. From all I have read it seems to mostly be centered around a dislike for Clay Bennett. I have not heard one susbstant arguement grounded in reality from any non-supporters.

[betts]

I don't necessarily think our city's future is dependent on the NBA, but I think we'll be much more likely to develop slowly, along the lines of Des Moines and Omaha, I worry about dowtown residential construction. The reason I say that is because I'm waiting for the results of the vote to commit to moving downtown. I am afraid that construction may slow or stop without an NBA team, and I worry about my property values there, as well as facing an empty field for years rather than other housing. I think you need people to feel that downtown is moving and developing for them to take a little bit of a gamble, which I think you're doing moving downtown. The NBA would be a big shot in the arm, I believe, because you've got something drawing people downtown a lot of nights of the year, and it adds interest and excitement to downtown. Restaurants are fuller, which leads to more restaurants. I've had several realtors tell me I'm smart to wait for the results of the vote.

In addition, there are a lot of anti-tax for anything people out there who might be energized by this proposition failing to pass, and they might gear up to attack MAPS3. If we don't pass this proposition or MAPS 3, I do believe the city's momentum will stop dead.

I have only my own reactions to this to use, but I've found that there are usually other people who think the same way I do when you've got a population this size. I had a great time when the Hornets were here. My family had such a great time that I miss them a lot. My kids have all moved or are moving away to bigger cities, literally because there's more to do in them, and I'm about to become an empty nester. For the first time in years and years, I've found myself thinking about moving away if we don't get a team. I love it in Oklahoma City, but why should I stay here if my family isn't here, and I can find more entertainment options elsewhere? Even my husband, who wasn't an NBA fan until he started going to Hornets games, has been grumbling about there being far less things to do with his leisure time since they left, as it's pretty much reading, movies or television in the winter, especially on weeknights. We don't have mountains or a beach, or lots of other geographic attractions to keep us busy in winter. If I'm thinking about this, when I raised my family here and love it here, how do we convince young people to move here when they've never lived here? Are there other people who feel like I do? I don't know the answer to that, but I wonder.

Of course the NBA made demands? Why should we be be angry or insulted about that? We would be the second smallest market in the NBA if we got a team, and who knows how long there's even going to be a team in New Orleans. We would have one of the lowest per capita incomes of any city with an NBA team. This is not a sure thing for the Sonics' owners or the NBA, as our two year support for a team is not a guarantee of 40 years' support. If you've visited other NBA arenas, it is obvious that ours is not up to the standards of the others. Orlando is building a $450 million dollar arena, and the one in Brooklyn is costing more. Then look at what's happening in cities without an NBA team. Louisville is building a 350+ million dollar arena for their college basketball team (and they may well come calling to Clay Bennett if we don't pass this proposal), Kansas City has completed their tenantless $300 million dollar arena, and I'd be shocked if the one in Las Vegas doesn't cost at least $500 million. Heck, Tulsa just finished a $200 million dollar arena. So, why should we be surprised or offended if the NBA is asking us to spend $120 million to upgrade our facilities and add a practice facility to our $89 million dollar arena, when the other cities with NBA teams have done as much and usually way more? I must say, when I put myself in David Stern's shoes, I'd do the same. There are only 30 NBA teams, and there are at least five other cities the size of Oklahoma City or larger who would love to have a team. I consider us both lucky to be a candidate for a team, and lucky to have been told the NBA will consider an upgrade to our pretty bare bones arena acceptable. That's my opinion.

[andy157]

More double talk from our wonderful Mayor. Knowing I will feel the rath from those of you who do in fact believe he really is wonderful, so be it. But consider these facts. Lets go back to the recent G.O. Bond election that contained eleven (11) separate propositions. Mayor Cornett supported each of them, and he urged each of us to do the same, and we did.

One of the proposed items was Proposition eleven (11), $75,000,000. for Economic Development. $75,000,000. of long term debt. Yet, Cornett touted this one to the hilt as to it's importence to our City, so that we could compete and survive in the arena of attracting new business. On the City's web page you will find an outline and explaination for each of the Propositions. The stated purpose of Prop. 11 was to create more jobs. That in and of itself sounds reasonable. How will this be accomplished? According to the document, which states "The Incentives include providing or improving a site, building facilities, or buying equipment" thats how. Cornett told us this made good sense and it was the right thing to do.

Now it appears his views on long term debt have changed. In the paper today while addressing the arena funding using revenue bonds like other City's have chosen to do, he states " He doesn't like that idea because it incurs Long Term Debt for an arena that might be obsolete by the time the bonds are paid back.

Seems his policys on long term debt change as required to meet his needs

[Kerry]

How is that double speak? It makes perfect sense to me. If the vote passes the city will start improvements to the Ford Center as soon as possible. The money will be raised in 12 to 15 months and spent almost as fast. However, the $75 million for Economic Development will be raised slowly and spent slowly. By collecting the money for the Ford Center via a sales tax there is no long-term debt. Why can't people figure this out? Economic education in this country sucks!

[andy157]

Andy157 - when did the owners blame Stern or deny culpability? I missed that one. When MAPS started in 1993 it's primary goal was to improve the quality of life in OKC. Attracting an NBA/NHL team was not THE goal of the initiative, but it was a milestone. I guess I just don't under the opposition to funding the arena improvements. From all I have read it seems to mostly be centered around a dislike for Clay Bennett. I have not heard one susbstant arguement grounded in reality from any non-supporters.

I agree you missed that one. Read my post, I support upgrading the FC. You missed that one also. And I dont dislike Clay Bennett, missed again. It appears you and I are at odds as it pertains to which one of us are in touch with reality.

[andy157]

How is that double speak? It makes perfect sense to me. If the vote passes the city will start improvements to the Ford Center as soon as possible. The money will be raised in 12 to 15 months and spent almost as fast. However, the $75 million for Economic Development will be raised slowly and spent slowly. By collecting the money for the Ford Center via a sales tax there is no long-term debt. Why can't people figure this out? Economic education in this country sucks!

The $20,000,00 needed to build the practice facility could come from the $75,000,000. in bond money thats already been approved. Which by the way can be raised and spent in one day. I guess some of us are just not as smart as you.

[betts]

I'm fine with the $20,000 for the practice facility coming from wherever. It can come from the economic development fund, seat tax, MAPS, whatever. That's not how the tax proposal is written, however. I don't see any way I can vote for the Ford Center improvements, and then write in for the practice facility to come from somewhere else. If we don't pass the March 4th tax proposal, it won't matter where the money is coming from, because we won't need a practice facility. But, I'm just not that upset about a three month penny sales tax to pay for a practice facility. It will be owned by the city regardless. The money will come from my taxes regardless. Even if I pay for it with a seat tax, it's still a tax. And, unlike other cities like Seattle, which has debt it won't retire until 2015 for facilities built five years ago, either way we're building it debt free. That saves the taxpayers money in the long run. And again, don't want to pay for the practice facility yourself? All you have to do is shop in Edmond, Moore or Bethany for the last three months of the MAPS tax. You won't have to spend a penny of your own money for the practice facility.

[Kerry]

Andy - I guess I misread you post. I gather from your response that the only thing you object to is where the funds for the practice facility come from. I don't think using bond money is the way to go when there is an option for a 3 month sales tax. Those bonds will take 30 years to pay off. Why pay interest for 30 years when you can build it debt free in 3 months?

[Slivermoon]

Pro or con, let's all take a step back and look at the big picture.

The original concept of MAPS 1 was born out of failure. The City was pitching United Airlines to build a sparkling new maintenance facility. After we lost, Mayor Norick sat in a debriefing and listened as United officials cited quality of life as among the reasons why Oklahoma City was not awarded the facility.

The United loss, among other factors, led to MAPS 1 and the concept of taxing ourselves to improve the quality of life for our citizens and improve the City's ability to compete on the economic development front.

Today we are debating improvements to facilitate potential relocation of an NBA team to Oklahoma City. Who would have dreamed such a thing to be possible for Oklahoma City back in 1990?

I would comment that we have come a long way.

[Slivermoon]

#211 (permalink) 01-20-2008, 01:00 PM
Slivermoon
Participating Member Join Date: Jun 2007
Total Posts: 16

Re: Ford Center improvements up for March 4 vote

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Seems like we've been down the Proposition 11 road before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy157
Explain to me if you will please how proposition 11 is completely unrelated to the potential relocation of the Sonics.

A legitimate question.

The incentives contemplated under Prop 11 are to be considered and perhaps approved by a new City Economic Development Trust, a public process, for the pupose of job creation incentives.

No doubt moving a basketball team here will have the direct effect of creating 100 - 125 (we'll say) average paying salaries and a number of moon-level-orbiting salaries. There will also be a secondary job impact as demonstrated in the Chamber/City economic impact report from the Hornets' 2005-2006 season in Oklahoma City. No doubt the report's $66 million+ annual impact on the city and state's economy is significant, but the focus of Prop 11 is on primary job creation.

Prop 11 is about competing with other markets in other states that have lots more tools in their suitcase than Oklahoma City does. Oklahoma city's have the State Quality Jobs Act and little else. Oklahoma City has been fortunate in recent years creatively using federal grant programs and other limited resources for special projects like the Hilton Skirvin and the Dell project, but those resources are tapped out.

If Oklahoma City wants to compete competitively for new major employers, a new, major, incentive resource was needed. That's what Prop 11 was all about. $75 million for performance-based, job creating, corporate incentives.

For that matter, that's part of what having the NBA, a resident philharmonic, touring Broadway shows, a viable convention center, vibrant museums, trails and recreational opportunities, etc. in Oklahoma City is about. Adding to resident quality of life and making Oklahoma City more appealing to new corporations.

That’s my point of view and I’m sticking to it. Hope you find it helpful. Again, great question from someone that has obviously taken the time to be informed of local issues.

[Patrick]

Not saying the the city will fall in disrepair if the No vote wins....BUT, I don't want to get a trend started of voting down improvement projects in this city. And, as long as we can keep the tax rate as it is, we're not increasing taxes when we promote these things. If the tax rate falls back to 7.375%, it's harder to ask the citizens to vote for a tax increase back to 8.375%.
We've been paying the 8.375% number since 1993.....over 14 years. Why is it such an issue now? Why not just continue on, and continue to make improvements to our city? And then follow this up with MAPS 3?

If we vote NO on the Ford Center, it DOES stop momentum. It stops the momentum of improving our city. It leaves us with a second-rate arena.....which isn't in line with what MAPS was all about.

[solitude]

Not saying the the city will fall in disrepair if the No vote wins....BUT, I don't want to get a trend started of voting down improvement projects in this city. And, as long as we can keep the tax rate as it is, we're not increasing taxes when we promote these things. If the tax rate falls back to 7.375%, it's harder to ask the citizens to vote for a tax increase back to 8.375%.
We've been paying the 8.375% number since 1993.....over 14 years. Why is it such an issue now? Why not just continue on, and continue to make improvements to our city? And then follow this up with MAPS 3?

If we vote NO on the Ford Center, it DOES stop momentum. It stops the momentum of improving our city. It leaves us with a second-rate arena.....which isn't in line with what MAPS was all about.

To be fair, the MAPS tax was to be TEMPORARY. That's a fact.
I support the arena upgrades.

Just think....a city that could've become major league, but chose not to, and fell into disrepair as a result.

Not saying the the city will fall in disrepair if the No vote wins

Sorry, I didn't realize you didn't mean what you said in the first post.

[Patrick]

To be fair, the MAPS tax was to be TEMPORARY. That's a fact.
I support the arena upgrades.

Well, yes, and all of these taxes are TEMPORARY...we just keep voting to extend them to continue improvement. I'd be for making the tax permanent, but I think continuing to have to back to the public to vote on a new set of proposals keeps the city accountable.

Sorry, I didn't realize you didn't mean what you said in the first post.

Well, I mean both. If we start a trend of voting down improvements for our city, we'll follow Tulsa's path pre-Vision 2025, which will lead to organized efforts to oppose improvements to our city.

[solitude]

Well, yes, and all of these taxes are TEMPORARY...we just keep voting to extend them to continue improvement. I'd be for making the tax permanent, but I think continuing to have to back to the public to vote on a new set of proposals keeps the city accountable.




Well, I mean both. If we start a trend of voting down improvements for our city, we'll follow Tulsa's path pre-Vision 2025, which will lead to organized efforts to oppose improvements to our city.

I have problems with certain things concerning this proposal. I may yet vote "yes" on this deal - but - don't assume that a citizen voting "no" on this particular proposal would vote against all improvements for Oklahoma City in the future. MAPS III with light rail? Bring it on! Infrastructure needs? Bring it on down! What's sad to me is that we will build this practice facility for an NBA team at $20,000,000.00; but the Police Department is having to renovate versus build a new building because of problems finding the funds. Only in America.

[Patrick]

I have problems with certain things concerning this proposal. I may yet vote "yes" on this deal - but - don't assume that a citizen voting "no" on this particular proposal would vote against all improvements for Oklahoma City in the future. MAPS III with light rail? Bring it on! Infrastructure needs? Bring it on down! What's sad to me is that we will build this practice facility for an NBA team at $20,000,000.00; but the Police Department is having to renovate versus build a new building because of problems finding the funds. Only in America.

Sounds good to me. I have no use for the OKCPD.

[solitude]

Sounds good to me. I have no use for the OKCPD.

I have had my beefs with some of the officers in the OKCPD, but.....

When you see a man milling about in your neighborhood whose picture you saw on the news the night before, (because he's wanted for multiple rapes), who are you going to call? The Sonics ticket office?

[Patrick]

I have had my beefs with some of the officers in the OKCPD, but.....

When you see a man milling about in your neighborhood whose picture you saw on the news the night before, (because he's wanted for multiple rapes), who are you going to call? The Sonics ticket office?

Would probably be more successful calling the Sonics ticket office than calling 911. Like the police really care anyways. They're too busy to mess with "neighorhood issues." The wanted rapist would probably be out the next day anyways.

[solitude]

Would probably be more successful calling the Sonics ticket office than calling 911. Like the police really care anyways. They're too busy to mess with "neighborhood issues." The wanted rapist would probably be out the next day anyways.

Well.........OK. Just a guess, but I bet that's a position you probably won't find too many supporting here. You don't have to love the OKCPD, or even deny there's corrupt cops on the street, to still believe that the department cares about whether a rapist is caught or not. In fact, I find your suggestion they don't care about such a heinous crime to be rather offensive. My point about city priorities obviously fell on deaf ears in your case, I meant it as a contrast in public responsibility -- which is on-topic. I'll stop responding to your inflammatory comments so we can get back to topic.

[OU Adonis]

I don't care much for the police either. They are basically only good for picking up the pieces after a crime has been committed. Your better served trying to protect yourself.

[Karried]

???

Please lets get :

[Patrick]

Maybe we should start a new topic about the OKCPD?