Lake Hefner at record low water levels, when will city buy Canton water?

[OKCisOK4me]

I think MarkAFuqua and law should (beyond their "like" fest for each other) get together and raise money through their community to rent a helicopter and pilot and fish as much water out of the North Canadian as they can and take it back to Canton. They've got two weeks, lol.

[catch22]

I followed the river this water is going to be travelling down to Overholser on Google Earth. Most of it is bone dry. Literally just dry sand/dirt. I bet they will lose a lot of water in the transfer. The more I look at the facts in this, the more I shake my head. Why couldn't we have waited until a good few spring rains?

[Midtowner]

Your rant would be true and relevant to this topic if we were asking the delay be put off indefinitely, but as that is not the case your are wrong in your writing. I know full well the benefits that OKC and Tulsa bring to the state but you might also consider the oil and gas that comes from our part of the state might be rather large economic drivers as well?? We only asked Mrs. Slaughter and the OCWUT to hold off for 60 to 90 days before taking the release to let spring rains try and help relieve the issue. We only pointed out that if her organization would have done their jobs, and seen the effects of this drought which has long been forecast by professionals, that we wouldn't be where we are today. If they had educated on and perhaps mandated some water rationing this probably wouldn't be an issue right now. Everyone out here knows who has the water rights and that the city has the right to use them, we just wanted some good stewardship of the water and consideration of the damage that will be done to everyone out here. We are all people who come to the city to shop and spend money in that economic machine, so it's not like OKC survives on it's own. We are all from Oklahoma and depend on one another. The argument of leaving the water in Canton lake for a couple of more months, doesn't say we don't want any of the costs of having OKC. I just can't understand using your reserve before using what's in your own back yard. There is well over 4-5 months water stored in Hefner right now, all we were asking for was a couple. It would be like running a motorcycle on the reserve tank before flipping it to main, doesn't make sense especially when the main tank may be refilled much quicker than the reserve.

The trouble is we just now had enough rain to saturate the ground enough that most of the water won't be lost during the transfer. We don't know for sure whether that opportunity would represent itself. The damage caused to Canton is strongly outweighed by the benefit OKC has in a safe and abundant water supply. Canton will eventually replenish, though it may well take awhile to get there.

[MarkAFuqua]

I think MarkAFuqua and law should (beyond their "like" fest for each other) get together and raise money through their community to rent a helicopter and pilot and fish as much water out of the North Canadian as they can and take it back to Canton. They've got two weeks, lol.

I just hope it rains a bunch and this all becomes water under the bridge....above Canton Lake.... and all points beyond. :-)

[ou48A]

I followed the river this water is going to be travelling down to Overholser on Google Earth. Most of it is bone dry. Literally just dry sand/dirt. I bet they will lose a lot of water in the transfer. The more I look at the facts in this, the more I shake my head. Why couldn't we have waited until a good few spring rains?

With what is normally the wettest time of the year just a short time away and with all considerations taken into account waiting just a few weeks longer sure seems like it would have been the more intelligent thing to do.

But when dealing with any government agencies we know they are not known for making the most intelligent and efficient choices.

[OSUFan]

So if we waited a couple of more weeks and still drew the water people in NW OK would be okay with it?

[law]

You could have gone 30-60 days. Even if we have no rain west, we usually have rain east. We could have had some big rains east that would have made this draw unnecessary. Or we could have wet the riverbed a lot, and OKC would not have needed 30,000 acre-feet. They might have gotten by with 15,000 acre-feet, giving the Lake a better chance to survive.

At the end of this draw, Canton Lake will be at the Corps Drought Level 4. No other Lake in the Tulsa District will be below Drought Level 2.

If for the last two years, OKCWT had been saying, we're in a drought, please cut back on water consumption 15%. Surely 15% in an exceptional drought was achievable? If OKC could look west, and say, we've tried to help prevent this, instead, it's ours and we'll water our grass anytime we d**m well please.

No, they would not have liked it, but they would have understood. OKC would have given them and the Lake an opportunity to survive this situation, but that is not the case.

There have been meetings at Tulsa with the Corps, in Canton with the Corps, the OK Dept of Wildlife, the USGS, OKWRB. There have been meetings in OKC with Ms Slaughter and the OKCWT, and others.

Now, you will have all of the water available to you. It is yours, and in your hands. You can heed the warnings or blow them off. Unless it rains in the North Canadian watershed above Canton Lake, there is literally no more water from Canton Lake. It is your problem now.

[CaptDave]

should okc promote water conservation efforts going forward? should okc have in the past? i would say yes to both.

But we NEED green lawns in the 'burbs.....have to maintain the illusion of being out in the country. Why was it so difficult to see mandatory water conservation was needed months ago? OKC bungled this one.....

[CaptDave]

Anyone else find it ironic that conservation is so out of favor in a very conservative state?

[ljbab728]

Prove any exaggerations. From the Corps page on current Canton Lake status "At this elevation the total amount of water stored in Canton Lake is 49279 acre-feet."

The draw is 30,000 acre-feet. Canton's capacity WAS 111,000. The actual capacity today is unknown. No silt studies have been done since 1977. The actual capacity may only be 90,000 acre feet. Besides, Canton was already very low before this draw, you were not starting at 111,000.

So YES, Canton Lake BEFORE the draw was slightly above 2/3 empty. Within the next few days, it will be at 2/3rds empty, and this draw is expected to last around 2 weeks.

The Corps have said they do not know if the entire amount can be drawn, we are in unknown conditions. The Corps have said you are done after this draw until the lake refills to drawable level. These are facts not exaggerations.

You are basing what you are saying on supposition based on some perceived facts. Stating that it will stop flowing before OKC finishes the draw is exaggeration. Again, I understand the concern but there are not currently any facts that back you up. If the total amount stored is about 49,000 acre feet that is closer to 50 percent full based on either 111,000 or 90,000 than it is to slightly above 2/3 empty.

[law]

You are basing what you are saying on supposition based on some perceived facts. Stating that it will stop flowing before OKC finishes the draw is exaggeration. Again, I understand the concern but there are not currently any facts that back you up. If the total amount stored is about 49,000 acre feet that is closer to 50 percent full based on either 111,000 or 90,000 than it is to slightly above 2/3 empty.

Here is the Corps Canton Lake current status page including release information. It is a basic math, since 1/3 is 33.3%, therefore Canton is almost 2/3rds empty. See for yourself, the Conservation pool is 36.66% full today. It will be less tomorrow, and we have a long way to go. Here's the link: Canton Lake


There is no proof that the water will stop, it is not yet available. I have always said it was unknown. The Corps do not know if 30,000 acre-feet can be drawn or not. We will find out in the next two weeks or so. What they have said is, if it stops you're done with the draw.

[Dubya61]

Anyone else find it ironic that conservation is so out of favor in a very conservative state?

I don't think conservation is a political trait. If it were, the clearly NOT conservative Midtowner would not vow to have the best damned pet lawn in his 'hood. If it were and it leaned the way you indicated,, the apparently conservative RadMod wouldn't repeatedly advocate for xeriscaping. I think we either have weak-willed leaders or they have an ulterior motive to reach a crisis point about the time the Sardis matter reaches a court of law.

You ask a successful rancher or farmer (and there are LOTS of them in this oh so very red state) if they should squander the natural resources available to them, and they'll pull out their concealed AR-15 (WTF?), shoot you repeatedly and quickly in the lower leg and tell you that you should water their crops with your blood as you run off their land, hopefully having learned your lesson that we should conserve natural resources (well, water, at least).

[Bellaboo]

I just hope it rains a bunch and this all becomes water under the bridge....above Canton Lake.... and all points beyond. :-)

Last nights weather says next weekend will be a statewide 'rain event', it's a little far out to predict accurately, but let's all hope so.

[Bellaboo]

I just hope it rains a bunch and this all becomes water under the bridge....above Canton Lake.... and all points beyond. :-)

Last nights weather says next weekend will be a statewide 'rain event', I think it's a little far out to predict accurately, but let's all hope so.

[MarkAFuqua]

You are basing what you are saying on supposition based on some perceived facts. Stating that it will stop flowing before OKC finishes the draw is exaggeration. Again, I understand the concern but there are not currently any facts that back you up. If the total amount stored is about 49,000 acre feet that is closer to 50 percent full based on either 111,000 or 90,000 than it is to slightly above 2/3 empty.

In the meeting I was in with the Col of the Corp and his team in Tulsa, one of the professionals there stated he felt it was highly likely that the entire storage of the lake would be closer to only 90K acre feet now due to sedimentation. Just still a mystery as to the actual number since no sedimentation study has been done since 1977, but that was his opinion base on years of experience with other lakes. The Col and his team all said it was highly likely the water would hit a land bridge and not all of the 30K would make it out of the lake. I tend to disagree with them a little just because from fishing experience, I know how the river channel runs through the lake and how deep it is, and how it runs right up to the gates on the dam. If it ran up to the middle of the dam and not to the gates I would think they were right about a possible land bridge. I'm not going to lie, I hope they are right and I am wrong. Just to keep enough water in the lake to keep all the fish alive during the summer.

I think the biggest thing that the Canton Lake Association is asking is, is it worth potentially "killing" a lake and all the fish in it for nearly a decade by taking it to an unsafe level, to get four or five months worth of water supply into the city??? We sure don't think so. It's a risk vs reward thing and the reward does not out weigh the risk. Approx 4 months of "drinking water" is what we are talking about here in ruining economies in several small towns and potentially ruining your water source for some time in the future.

The people in power are not using their heads on this one especially if it rains a bunch between here and there, and yet we don't catch rains west of Canton to bring the lake back to safe levels. Someone should be held accountable for not doing the math in advance, and she can't say she didn't know because believe me we looked her in the eye and told her. Again, my fight is not with the people of OKC who weren't told there was a crisis, I think someone in power needs to be held accountable for the tremendous damage being done out west, for such a small, short term band aid fix for the 200K people of NW OKC who actually rely on Hefner/ Canton water. As LAW keeps saying, where will your water come from after that?? I promise you need to be asking and you won't like the answer. This statement for now at least only effects the people who get their "drinking water" out of Hefner.

[MarkAFuqua]

So if we waited a couple of more weeks and still drew the water people in NW OK would be okay with it?

We still would not have liked it, but it would have shown an effort on the part of the OCWUT to work with, and actually be concerned about the people of Western OK. That is all we asked for in our meeting with them. Just give spring rains a chance because once Canton Lake water is gone, it's gone and we can't get it back. Yet it's highly likely you will get more rain than we do based on a 30 year avg, nearly 10"s more per year.

[MarkAFuqua]

I don't think conservation is a political trait. If it were, the clearly NOT conservative Midtowner would not vow to have the best damned pet lawn in his 'hood. If it were and it leaned the way you indicated,, the apparently conservative RadMod wouldn't repeatedly advocate for xeriscaping. I think we either have weak-willed leaders or they have an ulterior motive to reach a crisis point about the time the Sardis matter reaches a court of law.

You ask a successful rancher or farmer (and there are LOTS of them in this oh so very red state) if they should squander the natural resources available to them, and they'll pull out their concealed AR-15 (WTF?), shoot you repeatedly and quickly in the lower leg and tell you that you should water their crops with your blood as you run off their land, hopefully having learned your lesson that we should conserve natural resources (well, water, at least).

That Sardis matter may very well backfire on them of that is the case.... If I were the tribes I would use Canton Lake as a poster child in court. Once this release is complete and the lake is as low as it's going to get, there will be mass media coverage and pictures galore... then if all the fish die, there will pictures of millions of fish carcasses floating in whats left of Canton. There will be much talk of the stench of those rotting fish and all of this will make the news...I promise you that. So in essence the OCWUT is giving ammo to the tribes by killing Canton Lake, they may very well be giving them the bullet they need to kill the Sardis deal.

You can think this is a little melodramatic if you wish, but I assure you this is all very likely to happen due to this current water draw.

The best thing the OCWUT could do would be to close the gates on Canton and seek 4 or 5 months worth of water elsewhere.

[kevinpate]

I think Sardis is as much or more about how water sale proceeds will be divvied up than whether sales should or should not occur. Could be mistaken.

[jn1780]

What will happen is that in a year or two from now if we don't get good rains, the city will say they need to fast track a pipeline project which will cost more money and
OKC residents will whine and complain saying "What the heck? You said we had enough water for 100 years!" You know because that little fact about how all that water to city always gets left out.

[C_M_25]

First off, having a surface lake in NW Oklahoma is foolish if you are truly concerned about water conservation. The nearly year-round dry air and continually hot air temperature results in very high evaporation rates. Average rainfall is also very low out that way compared to the majority of the state. If you are that worried about your water, drill a hole in the middle of the lake and store that water in the shallow water table.

Secondly, the needs of the many far outweigh the needs of a few. Sorry, but that is how things work. Whether it is Canton or Sardis, OKC will get its water one way or another.

[jn1780]

I think Sardis is as much or more about how water sale proceeds will be divvied up than whether sales should or should not occur. Could be mistaken.

Yep, and they will get more money. I and everyone else in the city will have to fork over more money because of a lack of planning.

[law]

the needs of the many far outweigh the needs of a few. Sorry, but that is how things work. Whether it is Canton or Sardis, OKC will get its water one way or another.

Then, you should pray for the water fairy to sprinkle some fairy dust on Hefner. When there is none, there really is none.

[MarkAFuqua]

First off, having a surface lake in NW Oklahoma is foolish if you are truly concerned about water conservation. The nearly year-round dry air and continually hot air temperature results in very high evaporation rates. Average rainfall is also very low out that way compared to the majority of the state. If you are that worried about your water, drill a hole in the middle of the lake and store that water in the shallow water table.

Secondly, the needs of the many far outweigh the needs of a few. Sorry, but that is how things work. Whether it is Canton or Sardis, OKC will get its water one way or another.

With over 700,000 visitors annually coming to Canton Lake and over $20,000,000 spent on tourism in a 60 mile radius based on a report by the Corp of Engineers in 2010, yet only 200,000 in NW OKC depending on that water....who really is the few and who really are the many???

[MarkAFuqua]

First off, having a surface lake in NW Oklahoma is foolish if you are truly concerned about water conservation. The nearly year-round dry air and continually hot air temperature results in very high evaporation rates. Average rainfall is also very low out that way compared to the majority of the state. If you are that worried about your water, drill a hole in the middle of the lake and store that water in the shallow water table.

Secondly, the needs of the many far outweigh the needs of a few. Sorry, but that is how things work. Whether it is Canton or Sardis, OKC will get its water one way or another.

What's truly foolish (for the very reasons you mention above) is a growing and expanding city continuing to rely on a surface lake in the arid region of NW OK for their "drinking water"..... they should have been looking for other alternatives for those 200K people in NW OKC a long time ago. Then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[C_M_25]

What's truly foolish (for the very reasons you mention above) is a growing and expanding city continuing to rely on a surface lake in the arid region of NW OK for their "drinking water"..... they should have been looking for other alternatives for those 200K people in NW OKC a long time ago. Then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on that one. However, if I understand this thread correctly, it seems that OKC has been working a deal with Sardis Lake, correct? If that is the case, then we shouldn't be relying on water from NW OKC anymore. OKC's water needs to come from Southeast/Eastern Oklahoma from here on out.

Now, your counterpart is making an argument that this lake benefits more people in NW Oklahoma because of tourism and general visits. However, relying on lake that will ultimately disappear in an exceptional drought for income is fine, but you have to understand that that lake will not be there indefinitely. Also, which is more important: holding on to that water for recreational use and tourism, or using that water for drinking water? Sure some idiots out there like to water their yards in the winter for some unknown reason, but the majority of that water is used for drinking. So, that water has a useful purpose. I'm sorry that recreation revenue is going to be down this year, but if you want to live next to a full lake and take part in water sports/fishing, you should probably move further east to an area that gets more water.