Oklahoma Turnpike Authority

[MagzOK]

With OTA involved now, the highway will happen. Localities had their chances to work with state leaders and ODOT 20 years ago during the "outer loop" studies, but "NO" was the only answer from anyone living around there. Now, instead of working together cohesively, they now get OTA to put it wherever it sees fit. These residents did it to themselves.

Bring on the dozers -- I'm ready to use that outer loop and will do so often.

[unfundedrick]

Yeah maybe but the conversation is just “no.” Not how is this going to work and the process to be properly compensated for property acquisitions. It’s the same thing as any other infrastructure project that requires eminent domaine. If you take the freeway to work chances are you are using a facility that took someone’s home at some point.

This is very true. My grandfather owned a half section of land in NW Norman. It was south of Robinson between 24th Avenue and 36th Avenue. Then I35 planning began right through the middle of his land. He fought it as much as he could but obviously nothing helped. I only wished he had lived long enough to have benefited from the millions of dollars that land eventually was worth.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah lane values will balloon when this tollway is built.

[BoulderSooner]

With OTA involved now, the highway will happen. Localities had their chances to work with state leaders and ODOT 20 years ago during the "outer loop" studies, but "NO" was the only answer from anyone living around there. Now, instead of working together cohesively, they now get OTA to put it wherever it sees fit. These residents did it to themselves.

Bring on the dozers -- I'm ready to use that outer loop and will do so often.

this is the correct answer ...

the eastern OK county turnpike had a lot of vocal opposition as well .... and now most people out there agree that it is a positive thing

[Zuplar]

Good news is the opposition has very little chance of stopping this. Their best hope is to get leaders at the state level involved and luckily Oklahoma isn’t dominated by a bunch of anti car nuts like California or Oregon so that isn’t likely. It’s hard to fight ODOT and even harder to fight the OTA.

When I spoke with the OTA last week I was told the only corridor that could be very significantly altered was the one by Will Rodgers as there are more hoops to jump through.

I agree they need to basically plow a freeway through mustang. That will get people up in arms as well but it needs to happen. You could get away with maybe just a few dozen homes connecting SH-4 to the Kilpatrick which would allow for a very useful bypass of OKC to I-44 and SH-9/I-35 by Riverwind. I was told they considered it but it wasn’t politically feasible at this time. Could be something in the future but that possibility gets bleaker by the year.

I got to imagine the one around Will Rogers should be fairly easy, as the airport or the some Oklahoma government entity already owns probably 90% of the land they show this to get built on. I kind of figured this may be one of the first projects because it seems the most straight forward and only effects maybe a couple of people.

[MagzOK]

Yeah lane values will balloon when this tollway is built.

I agree. And you know, especially with the turnpike going across the southern part of the city, I would hope they would build it to expressway standards. What I mean is, something like an urban turnpike with no median rather center barrier, three lanes on each side, and service roads up close -- much like Central Expressway through Dallas. Something like that would certainly spur growth in things like new restaurants and stores in an urban setting. I'm not a huge fan of these rural-style turnpikes (those with large grass median, no service roads) going right through city. Something like that really takes away any real opportunity for rezoning and more tax revenue from restaurants and stores. But alas, whatever style is built, it will really help traffic.

[Snowman]

I agree. And you know, especially with the turnpike going across the southern part of the city, I would hope they would build it to expressway standards. What I mean is, something like an urban turnpike with no median rather center barrier, three lanes on each side, and service roads up close -- much like Central Expressway through Dallas. Something like that would certainly spur growth in things like new restaurants and stores in an urban setting. I'm not a huge fan of these rural-style turnpikes (those with large grass median, no service roads) going right through city. Something like that really takes away any real opportunity for rezoning and more tax revenue from restaurants and stores. But alas, whatever style is built, it will really help traffic.

Given the closest to what you are describing OTA has built is the portion of Kilpatrick flanked by Memorial, it seems pretty unlikely they would start building that exact style in areas that still are mostly greenfield development. If the nearby cities are not being cooperative it probably will not help it being in a more urban style either.

[Jeepnokc]

When I spoke with the OTA last week I was told the only corridor that could be very significantly altered was the one by Will Rodgers as there are more hoops to jump through.

.

Did they say how it could be altered? Right now it looks to be right behind my house. (which is why my spring project is to plant a row of trees across the back so they can get a head start for being noise and view protector)

[Plutonic Panda]

Did they say it could be altered? Right now it looks to be right behind my house. (which is why my spring project is to plant a row of trees across the back so they can get a head start for being noise and view protector)

They said out of all the proposed projects this one was the most likely to be altered.

[bucktalk]

As a side note -the Kilpatrick as a LOT of lots streetlights which do not work. I've contacted the OTA for two months about this issue but get zero response. I thought upkeep on turnpikes were better than local streetlight outages.

[Plutonic Panda]

Since it’ll be a quick minute before we see detailed plans released this might as well be as good of time as any to discuss road expansion related issues. Many here probably know I don’t see induced demand as big of an issue here as it would be in a city like NYC. Therefore in most cases I don’t see induced demand as a reason to not build or expand freeways.

But I came across this article today which I found interesting and not the repeated crap from Streetsblog, The Atlantic, City Lab, or other anti car publications that point to examples like the 405 expansion becoming congested again and scream “see I told you induced demand induced demand!!!.” This article actually adds more to the conversation than that: https://www.governing.com/next/searc...loving-society

[bombermwc]

I'd be interested in knowing how they came to that conclusion. Did the monitor traffic for all of the city roads as well as the highways for months to know where the cars migrated to? It's not as though the cars suddenly appeared from nowhere. The cars had to move from one road to another (or not). And right now, how do you track that properly before businesses all "return to work" from COVID?

Look, we can't NOT build new interstates. No matter where you build them, someone is going to be pissed about it, and for very reasonable reasons (i built here because it was away from the highway/etc). But that has always been the case and will continue to be the case as long as we are growing as a city and need the infrastructure to support it. Of course it can help contribute to sprawl, but it also a benefit to all of the people that already live in those areas. Again, it redistributes the cars more than anything. Yes, we have overall growth, but not enough that would fill every road. Personally, i think people jump to conclusions with these roads rather than patiently analyzing the data...or collecting the proper data in the first place.

I'll say again, my only wish would be that we could fund ODOT in a way that these didn't have to be toll roads.

[Plutonic Panda]

It’s a discussion that usually points to roads like the Katy Freeway and Sepulveda Pass as case studies. Like the 405 being extremely congested and adding a single lane not doing much to benefit the situation but it’s extremely flawed because it doesn’t point out latent demand, bottlenecks on each end of the project extents, or ancillary benefits like reducing local traffic or pulling traffic from other constrained corridors.

But rather if you expanded roads in NYC you might see people decide to drive instead as it’s made easier and by principle I’d support that since I am pro car anyways. I did the whole urban living thing( I still live over a subway station now with great walkability and okay biking options) and I am over it. To me cities absolutely suck and suburbs are the way to go but I understand why some prefer the alternative.

I just posted that article as an appreciation it doesn’t repeat the tired trope of why widen a freeway since it’ll have to be widened again. That logic is so irrational. Induced demand has to be one of the most absurd arguments I’ve ever heard. Yet many planners know damn well freeways like the 405 need several additional lanes each way instead of just one. But as opposed to rejecting a proposed freeway expansion outright, I can appreciate considering induced demand, among other things, in considering alternatives and various project components instead of endless freeway expansion with nothing more.

That being said I’ll always support expanding freeways no matter how big so as long as traffic counts justify the expansion and if given an ultimatum I’ll choose cars over mass transit but it doesn’t have to be that way. We would do well to place more emphasis on mass/active transit than we currently do. It’d be nice to see some of those projects come along with these new freeways proposed by the OTA. Tulsa got a mixed use trail built along the Gilcrease Tollway.

Yes I’d greatly support a more socialist approach in Oklahoma to funding road construction than direct user fees. It disproportionately impacts the poor though fortunately for the time being Oklahoma has some of the lowest tolls in the nation. I paid almost $20 to just go a few miles the other day on the 10 express lanes.

[TheTravellers]

... Induced demand has to be one of the most absurd arguments I’ve ever heard. ...

Part 1 of the series you cited part 2 of in post #311 says this, so it's not really that absurd if it's been quantitatively measured.

"Induced demand has been theorized for almost 100 years, formally studied beginning in the 1960s, and quantitatively measured in the 1990s and the early 21st century. This basic concept is key to understanding congestion relief, which is arguably the central policy goal of American transportation planning."

[Plutonic Panda]

Induced demand wasn’t really regarded much in transportation planning until the 90s from what I recall. Even then I’m only saying it’s absurd to use it solely as a basis for opposing highway expansion unless we want to propose a very strict congestion management that imposes direct user fees on all roads with variable pricing and roads no wider than 2 lanes each way to preserve space. This of course is a just a non starter for many reasons.

Up until then it only seemed freeway revolts were due to rich enclaves like Beverly Hills not wanting freeways through their communities or strong civil rights movements wanting to prevent Moses type freeway plans that directly targeted particular communities due to their race. I mean back then how often was a freeway stopped due to environmental or induced demand concerns?

[jn1780]

I don't induced demand is really a thing in Oklahoma, but it is really much real for large cities that actually has fully built out mass transit systems. More traffic, people more likely to use mass transit. Make a bigger road, more people will switch over until a new equilibrium is achieved.

[shawnw]

CityNerd has an excellent and recent video on induced demand with lots of citations.

[catch22]

It’s not an immediate problem in most cases, but it does create a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. If the south connector is built, I would guess in 20-30 years it will look like Memorial Rd does today. Where if it weren’t built at all, none of that growth would occur in a very similar or explosive way. That growth would
Probably stick to existing infrastructure.

I’m not saying that corridor is not needed but just using that as an example because that is a prime area for growth that would not happen if it weren’t for that connector. Newcastle connecting to S Moore/N Norman area will allow those two geographically isolated areas merge into one along the turnpike.

[BoulderSooner]

I don't induced demand is really a thing in Oklahoma, but it is really much real for large cities that actually has fully built out mass transit systems. More traffic, people more likely to use mass transit. Make a bigger road, more people will switch over until a new equilibrium is achieved.

yep in oklahoma with transit that is limited ... everyone (for the most part) that can drive does .....

all "induced demand" does in oklahoma is shift the traffic from one road to another ... it doesn't really up traffic for the system as a whole ..

[G22]

yep in oklahoma with transit that is limited ... everyone (for the most part) that can drive does .....

all "induced demand" does in oklahoma is shift the traffic from one road to another ... it doesn't really up traffic for the system as a whole ..

I think the point is if big new roads are built people will drive longer distances and make more car trips. You will also have service vehicles driving those areas creating more slow traffic. If the commute takes too long more people will live and work in the same area in order to reduce their commute times.

With density more things become walkable and there are fewer car trips. The question isn't does induced demand happen in Oklahoma, the question is do we want more density and walkability or do we want more sprawl and car ownership as a requirement. I know there are proponents for both but someone will have to fund replacing the miles and miles of infrastructure that we already have. In 30 years OKC should be a "big" city. The decisions we make today (good or bad) will impact what happens 25 to 50 years from now.

[GoGators]

I heard on KGOU this morning that Mayor Breea Clark was formally coming out against the turnpike proposed for the east side of Norman.

Edit:
Found an article about it.

[jedicurt]

i guess i'm one of the few Norman Residents who have no issues and actually was really excited about the Turnpike plans.

[Plutonic Panda]

It isn’t surprising at all Norman officials are opposed to the turnpike. Norman also has opposed several good urban developments in Campus Corner. It’s like Edmond and Norman compete to see who can be the biggest NIMBYs. Maybe the OTA is practicing with Norman for the future when they take on Edmond.

[Plutonic Panda]

i guess i'm one of the few Norman Residents who have no issues and actually was really excited about the Turnpike plans.

Yeah I know several land owners, one who actually has some that might be taken, who are VERY excited for these roads. Property values will skyrocket.

[Plutonic Panda]

yep in oklahoma with transit that is limited ... everyone (for the most part) that can drive does .....

all "induced demand" does in oklahoma is shift the traffic from one road to another ... it doesn't really up traffic for the system as a whole ..

That’s even largely true in SoCal. New demand isn’t being created it was already there you just didn’t see or notice it. Hence latent demand.