Oklahoma City Thunder 2017-18

[OKCRT]

Roberson is still the weak link and now it seems he's forgot how to play defense. Dipo just ate him up. He really should not be starting on this team. He's a situational player off the bench IMO.

[OKC_on_mines]

Wait so roberson was guarding dipo when he dropped 30 on us? Sheesh.....

[Thomas Vu]

35, but that's besides the point. Team defense is significantly more important than individual, and with Melo being on a contender we can only hope that the help defense the team brings is better than what it was.

[dankrutka]

Did a quick Comparison not Analysis

Well pulling ex-OKC bench players from the last three years and comparing them to only OKC's current bench minus Patrick Patterson is likely to provide a pretty one-sided comparison. Also, context adds a lot too.

If we're just comparing the benches from this season and last (which is still problematic since OKC's big three will play way more with the bench), here you go:
rookie Abrines < second-year Abrines
Domas Sabonis < Patrick Patterson
3rd year Jerami Grant < 4th year Jerami Grant
Semaj Christon < Raymond Felton
Kanter > Huestis (meaningful in regular season, not in playoffs as none of these guys might play)
McDermott = Ferguson (neither have shown much yet, but I'd definitely take Ferguson's upside)
Singler = Singler (this is the intersection of basketball nothingness and an abyss)

[dankrutka]

Roberson is still the weak link and now it seems he's forgot how to play defense. Dipo just ate him up. He really should not be starting on this team. He's a situational player off the bench IMO.

Wait so roberson was guarding dipo when he dropped 30 on us? Sheesh.....

This is the basketball equivalent of Inhofe saying a snowball means global warming is a myth. Roberson has not forgotten how to play basketball. The best defensive players in the league don't shut guys down night in and out. But great defensive players tip the scale in their teams favor over time. Roberson has looked fine defensively this season and is a major difference maker still.

[OKC_on_mines]

Listen I won't debate with you anymore.....the way you feel about Robertson is the way I feel about my guy Steven Adams. Every year he gets better in scoring and he has always been a good defender. With more space on the floor he will continue to dominate as the best center in the league.

[dankrutka]

Listen I won't debate with you anymore.....the way you feel about Robertson is the way I feel about my guy Steven Adams. Every year he gets better in scoring and he has always been a good defender. With more space on the floor he will continue to dominate as the best center in the league.

I get frustrated like everyone else with Roberson's inability to shoot. And, there's been some suggestions, that maybe he had some kind of injection from which he may still be recovering, which may be why he hasn't looked great to start the season. But, my pet peeve, is that we as fans in general don't value parts of the game that are not obvious (e.g., defense, screen setting, off ball activity). Everyone loved Kanter because he scored, but hates Roberson because he can't. But Roberson helps the Thunder win games, especially meaningful ones, more than Kanter. I defend Roberson because hardly anyone else does even though he's a pretty decent player because of his defense. And, in the end, the numbers mostly back that up. If there's a good sample size of data that suggests that he does not help the Thunder win then I'll be calling for him to be benched too. Anyway, I'm a bit of a contrarian by nature so when everyone is bashing Robes it makes me want to defend him. I enjoy the debate.

Oh, and we agree about Steven Adams. He looks great this season. Beyond his efficient scoring, he does a lot of little things to help this team win. He's been amazing. Probably OKC's second best player so far this season.

[Laramie]

Donovan has been consistent with having a Westbrook, George or Anthony in with the reserves while two of the big 3 rests. Bench will be stronger than last season; also, impressed with the progress Felton, Abrines, Grant & Huestis have made since opening night. Especially, Felton's knowledge for the game.

[OKC_on_mines]

I get frustrated like everyone else with Roberson's inability to shoot. And, there's been some suggestions, that maybe he had some kind of injection from which he may still be recovering, which may be why he hasn't looked great to start the season. But, my pet peeve, is that we as fans in general don't value parts of the game that are not obvious (e.g., defense, screen setting, off ball activity). Everyone loved Kanter because he scored, but hates Roberson because he can't. But Roberson helps the Thunder win games, especially meaningful ones, more than Kanter. I defend Roberson because hardly anyone else does even though he's a pretty decent player because of his defense. And, in the end, the numbers mostly back that up. If there's a good sample size of data that suggests that he does not help the Thunder win then I'll be calling for him to be benched too. Anyway, I'm a bit of a contrarian by nature so when everyone is bashing Robes it makes me want to defend him. I enjoy the debate.

Oh, and we agree about Steven Adams. He looks great this season. Beyond his efficient scoring, he does a lot of little things to help this team win. He's been amazing. Probably OKC's second best player so far this season.

And I agree with most of the things you post in the threads Dankrukta but I think you misunderstand me if you presume I dot know or value the defensive impact that Robertson brings. Kanter is a good example. I liked him a ton. But the same footwork he employed on offense wasnt transferable to defense. It doesn't make you anti-Kanter because you acknowledge that. I don't think Robertson is an elite defender guarding the 2 position. Elite defenders-kawhi Leonard, klay Thompson, Raymond green, Rudy gobert, etc- they don't give up 2 games of almost 30 points back to back very often.

So, although I love robersons grit and determination, and tenacity, and defensive prowess.....he isn't and elite defender. But to me, that's up for debate. What shouldn't be up for debate is playing a guy like roberson when he handicaps the half-court offense instead of a guy like huestis who can score and shoot and defend too.

[sooner88]

And I agree with most of the things you post in the threads Dankrukta but I think you misunderstand me if you presume I dot know or value the defensive impact that Robertson brings. Kanter is a good example. I liked him a ton. But the same footwork he employed on offense wasnt transferable to defense. It doesn't make you anti-Kanter because you acknowledge that. I don't think Robertson is an elite defender guarding the 2 position. Elite defenders-kawhi Leonard, klay Thompson, Raymond green, Rudy gobert, etc- they don't give up 2 games of almost 30 points back to back very often.

So, although I love robersons grit and determination, and tenacity, and defensive prowess.....he isn't and elite defender. But to me, that's up for debate. What shouldn't be up for debate is playing a guy like roberson when he handicaps the half-court offense instead of a guy like huestis who can score and shoot and defend too.

He was 2nd team all-defense last year....

[OKC_on_mines]

Good point. ^^^

[Urbanized]

...But, my pet peeve, is that we as fans in general don't value parts of the game that are not obvious (e.g., defense, screen setting, off ball activity)...

This is precisely the reason I so doggedly defended Russ for so many years. Back when the Thunder first started there were few nationally-televised games, and a bunch of national media judged him based on a few clips each night that often included him clanking an ill-advised shot. They created this false narrative that he was "selfish," and it stuck. And they and most casual watchers failed to see that he had roughly zero other team scoring options for the first few years when KD was double and triple teamed (which very often) or having an off shooting night (which was also very often) or pouting and standing like a statue above the arc (which was all of the damned time). And once Harden emerged he was of course mostly on the floor when Russ was off of it. But from day one it was obvious to me that the amount of disruption he was causing would pay off if only his teammates improved, bought in, and rose to the occasion. Media and casual observers also conveniently forgot that somehow KD led the league in scoring three seasons while he was here.

Obviously Russ is a more mature and fully-developed player now and that helps, but his game is still largely the same and I'm super glad to see guys like Carmelo and PG appreciating the skill and leadership. Makes me incredibly optimistic, providing it continues. The point is that I agree that fans (and even media) get easily distracted by out-of-context stats or flashy parts of the game and miss other less-obvious elements a player brings.

...But Roberson helps the Thunder win games, especially meaningful ones, more than Kanter. I defend Roberson because hardly anyone else does even though he's a pretty decent player because of his defense...

And one of the things that is often not talked about when breaking down his stats is that he is generally going strait at the most elite players in the league, every night. As in, that is his assignment. So even comparing his defensive stats to even other players on his own team is pretty misleading. With the assignments he gets, simply having above average stats over the course of a season would be a massive achievement.

[dankrutka]

And I agree with most of the things you post in the threads Dankrukta but I think you misunderstand me if you presume I dot know or value the defensive impact that Robertson brings. Kanter is a good example. I liked him a ton. But the same footwork he employed on offense wasnt transferable to defense. It doesn't make you anti-Kanter because you acknowledge that. I don't think Robertson is an elite defender guarding the 2 position. Elite defenders-kawhi Leonard, klay Thompson, Raymond green, Rudy gobert, etc- they don't give up 2 games of almost 30 points back to back very often.

So, although I love robersons grit and determination, and tenacity, and defensive prowess.....he isn't and elite defender. But to me, that's up for debate. What shouldn't be up for debate is playing a guy like roberson when he handicaps the half-court offense instead of a guy like huestis who can score and shoot and defend too.

This is my point: I am not sure your claims are true. Are you sure those players you mentioned don't give up 30 point games? How do you know? Great defensive players generally don't shut down NBA players from scoring. They just cause a few more misses here and there, deny a couple passes, cause hesitancy. But I'm pretty sure all defenders, including the ones you mentioned, give up huge games. You think Kawhi stops Durant from scoring 30 all the time? Or other players? Also, did you break down who was the primary defender on Oladipo when he scored? It's easy to blame it all on Roberson, but do you know how many points Roberson actually gave up? He only played 21 minutes so other defenders likely gave up a lot of it too. I am fine with disagreeing. Just like to see some evidence or stats on the claims. It's like the suggestion that Avery Bradley is a better defender, but I looked it up and pretty much every stat showed Roberson as being significantly better. When you look at Roberson's stats, they show an elite defender. What evidence contradicts that? Now, maybe he's regressed so much as to make his defense not worth it, that's an interesting debate.

[dankrutka]

And one of the things that is often not talked about when breaking down his stats is that he is generally going strait at the most elite players in the league, every night. As in, that is his assignment. So even comparing his defensive stats to even other players on his own team is pretty misleading. With the assignments he gets, simply having above average stats over the course of a season would be a massive achievement.

There are some advanced stats that account for your competition level, which are useful.

[OKC_on_mines]

Dankrukta

Like Thomas.vu said a while back. I think I have made a poor attempt at expressing my thought. So instead of drafting extensive paragraphs to expound on my thoughts lets keep it simple..... We can debate whether or not he is an elite defender or simply solid or even good. Nonetheless, I'm suggesting that maybe his offensive challenges handicap OUr half-court offense so much that it not only cancels but isn't even worth him playing. A solid defender who can contribute 15 points a game from the shooting guard position and will demand the opponent guarding him to not sag in the paint might be a better option!

That's as simple as I can state it.

By the way, my old statistics professor taught me that stats lie. 😏😏😏

[Jake]

Another tough loss.

The team hasn't been able to put together a full performance yet in this young season. There are times where aspects of their games are great. A quarter of good offense/defense, Melo shooting well, PG shooting well, etc. But they haven't been able to piece it all together yet.

It's gonna take some time, probably around Christmas or so, until they get rolling. I know the gnashing of teeth is coming, so I want to try and put some perspective out there. No need to panic, folks.

[dankrutka]

Dankrukta

Like Thomas.vu said a while back. I think I have made a poor attempt at expressing my thought. So instead of drafting extensive paragraphs to expound on my thoughts lets keep it simple..... We can debate whether or not he is an elite defender or simply solid or even good. Nonetheless, I'm suggesting that maybe his offensive challenges handicap OUr half-court offense so much that it not only cancels but isn't even worth him playing. A solid defender who can contribute 15 points a game from the shooting guard position and will demand the opponent guarding him to not sag in the paint might be a better option!

That's as simple as I can state it.

By the way, my old statistics professor taught me that stats lie. 

Yes, two things here: I don't agree there's an argument as to whether Roberson is an elite defender, but I do agree that his offensive challenges make for an argument of his overall value. So, we can agree on one of two. And, I also agree, stats can show whatever someone wants, which is why interpretation is important. I tried to provide that.

To all this discussion, Donovan sat Roberson for the first time in a long time. We'll see how it works out. I don't see who can get his minutes that will help the team more, but I'm not against experimenting. We will see. For the franchise, hopefully Robes bounces back because he just signed a new three year deal.

Tough game in Minny. Thunder offense was great, defense was awful. It's a long season though. No need to panic. Personally, I think the key to this team is Melo stepping back a bit offensively and looking for more threes instead of twos, but I'm not sure I expect his game to change.

[bradh]

Yep, glad I skipped this game and went to watch game 3 of the WS at a bar

[Thomas Vu]

My memory must be fickle, I thought it was me and one other guy preferring Kanter over Roberson vs everybody else (in this thread). Outside of this thread I could see it going the way Dan mentioned for the reasons he provided. I since gave up on that position and tried to demonstrate that there are two sides to the court and they are literally on each side of the coin.

It's not my intention to start another discussion about it, as it recently occurred to me that "fan" is short for "fanatic" and that most discussions involving a fanatic usually falls on deaf ears either way.

[Jake]

If you could merge Alex Abrines' offensive ability with Roberson's defensive ability, we'd be all set.

[OKC_on_mines]

^^^^I know right!

That NBA2k created player might be this years mvp lol

[Laramie]

.

Oklahoma City Thunder 101 - Chicago Bulls 69

Box score: http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400974830

Westbrook's 3rd Triple Double - Points 12, Rebounds 13, Assists 13

[Urbanized]

Paul George shot his way out of his mini-slump, Thunder was raining threes as a group - GSW style - during the first half, D was swarming and much-improved for most of the game, team as a whole picked up rebounding slack that had appeared post-Kanter departure - including Carmelo, notably, though Westbrook was a rebounding machine - and Melo notched his 6th game in a row above 20 points, the only player in Thunder history to start a season like that. Granted, the Bulls are awful, but really nice progress in this game. Oh, and Steven Adams: good at basketball. Thunder perimeter threats are allowing him FEAST on offense.

[Laramie]

These charters, my God; just thankful by the looks of the nose of that plane we didn't have some casualties. If they hit a bird, it must have been one of Godzilla's flying sea monsters.

[OKC_on_mines]

Defense looking real damn good. Steven Adams is a beast. Middleton just through the ball at Steven Adams lol; maybe I've had too many ultimate long island ice teas here at TGIF but I kind of wanted Steven to fold him up like a pretzel!

Just once to put the whole league (draymond green) on notice