Core to Shore

[Fantastic]

Thanks Larry, that is great information.

As far as the Spirit Trolleys go... Look, I'm sorry that someone whom I personaly respect a great deal had a horrible experience three years ago, but when I said they worked out pretty well, the "measurable standard" that I was using was what I see everyday, and working where I work, I DO see them used on a daily basis, especially durring the main tourist season, and even in the offseason.

NOW back to what I was TRYING to ask. As far as Core To Shore goes... Is it possible that Trolley stops could be made at some of the new attractions (Park, CC, and any other associated development), or will that over extend the Trolley "fleet?" And IF Trolley stops will be added to these new attractions, how long will the aging "fleet" remain serviceable?

[Larry OKC]

Fantastic: You're welcome. While I am sure they do get used, their impact could be so much greater if they fixed many of the problems discussed here and I think mentioned in the recent blog link (havent checked it). Same with the River Cruise boats. These are the same folks that are presumably going to be running the MAPS 3 Streetcars...

[Just the facts]

From 2010. Is the downtown trolley still free? How is the ridership?

http://www.acogok.org/Newsroom/Downloads11/20112013.pdf

Route 51 (Orange Line Trolley) was reduced to operate only on Fridays and Saturdays from 2:30 pm until 10:30 pm. Route 51 serves the Stockyards district and the Meridian Hotel area. COTPA operated this route using a 29’ Opus bus with a “Stagecoach” style of exterior graphic wrap, not a heritage trolley-look bus after August 1.

Route 52 (Red Line Trolley) was eliminated in February. It used to run in the Downtown-Bricktown area during weekdays.

From July 1, downtown trolleys (Blue Line Trolley) were offered free to ride for one year. Platt College is sponsoring this free fare.

One cut, one scaled back, and one free.

[jungmuny]

In the defense of the City, ...
Then at the proverbial last minute federal funding was cut. If that article was correct, obviously the route had been determined by that point (but I don't ever recall a specific path, other than the general DT to the Fairgrounds to the Meridian hotel corridor).

The reality is that federal funding was never a real possibility.
Here are the basic reasons I know of that a pet project would get federal funding:
-The President repays a state for their loyalty by using his political capital to push through a project.
-The President, with an eye toward reelection, pushes for federal funding in a swing state.
-A state delegate in Congress uses his seniority on a certain committee/subcommittee to get some funding sent home(e.g. Istook with the crosstown).
-A state delegate in Congress feels reelection heat and pushes through funding back to his constituency.

None of these situations applied to Oklahoma/OKC in the 90s. The question of federal funding was a smokescreen, it wasn't politically viable. I'm convinced the streetcar will end up being the legacy of all the MAPS projects and probably Cornett because it was the most popular line item on a ballot that barely passed. Whether the whole thing was a sham or an unqualified success depends on how the streetcar gets built.

[OKCisOK4me]

NOW back to what I was TRYING to ask. As far as Core To Shore goes... Is it possible that Trolley stops could be made at some of the new attractions (Park, CC, and any other associated development), or will that over extend the Trolley "fleet?" And IF Trolley stops will be added to these new attractions, how long will the aging "fleet" remain serviceable?

The whole point of the rails embedded in the street is that they can't move, therefore, leading to private and public development along the tracks. Would Oklahoma City be here today if AT&SF and SL&SF decided on other routes? No, I don't think so. You underestimate the value of any kind of iron rail.

[Urban Pioneer]

For what it's worth, MTP has a full audio recording of the entire MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee meeting that will be posted for podcast streaming once the levels are mastered.

[Fantastic]

The whole point of the rails embedded in the street is that they can't move, therefore, leading to private and public development along the tracks. Would Oklahoma City be here today if AT&SF and SL&SF decided on other routes? No, I don't think so. You underestimate the value of any kind of iron rail.

Yes, I understand this, and no I do not underestimate rail... quite the opposite, all I said was that I liked the versatility of the Spririt Trolley... NEVER did I say that I didn't like light rail, as a matter of fact in my original question, I said it would not be a bad thing to develop around a light rail system

And I like thier versatility. Seems to me that as the Convention Center and park come online, trolley stops can be made at these destinations, whereas if we had a light rail system we would have had to develop AROUND it (not that it would have been all that bad of an idea) because you can't just move the light rail.

I truely appologize if my stance on light rail was misunderstood, I was simply trying to address some of the positive aspects of the trolleys, not undermine light rail.

[Urban Pioneer]

For what it's worth, MTP has a full audio recording of the entire MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee meeting that will be posted for podcast streaming once the levels are mastered.

http://soundcloud.com/moderntransitp...maps-3-transit

[skanaly]

Is there an updated Core to Shore map somewhere?

[Spartan]

Ok, I apologize for my previous comment, I really thought the light rail to spirit trolley change happened earlier in the process. Eh, whatever. The trolleys have worked out pretty well. And I like thier versatility. Seems to me that as the Convention Center and park come online, trolley stops can be made at these destinations, whereas if we had a light rail system we would have had to develop AROUND it (not that it would have been all that bad of an idea) because you can't just move the light rail.

Speaking of the Spirit Trolleys, any information on their longevity?

Well, rubber-tire trolleys became popular in the 90s and quickly got debunked. There does need to be a certain degree of permanence in order for a transit solution to result in ridership, infill, and functionality.

[Steve]

Urbanized, never heard that nickname used in reference to me before.
I'll be visiting your store in the morning for free "samples" of your First Rate historic photos, DVDs, CDs and art work. I'm sure you won't mind, seeing as you're such a proponent of ensuring we have the right to enjoy the fruits of folks' creative efforts for free.
With that response to your nickname done with, I'd also advise caution in assuming anything written under the byline of the story you posted is completely accurate.

[Just the facts]

The whole point of the rails embedded in the street is that they can't move, therefore, leading to private and public development along the tracks. Would Oklahoma City be here today if AT&SF and SL&SF decided on other routes? No, I don't think so. You underestimate the value of any kind of iron rail.

That is why towns built along railroads still exist and towns built on stage coach lines are called ghost towns today.

[Rover]

Oddly enough, it was also rails that enabled the first suburban sprawl.

[OKCisOK4me]

That is why towns built along railroads still exist and towns built on stage coach lines are called ghost towns today.

And towns that set up before the railroads picked their routes and were missed by even a few miles, went quietly into the night.

[Fantastic]

Well, rubber-tire trolleys became popular in the 90s and quickly got debunked. There does need to be a certain degree of permanence in order for a transit solution to result in ridership, infill, and functionality.

*facepalm* How many times do I have to say this. I'm NOT against light rail. JTF, Spartan, and OKCisOK4me have all misunderstood my point. I specifically noted in that post that developing around a permanent rail line would NOT HAVE BEEN A BAD IDEA... I even quoted myself later and made that part bold so you guys would understand. I even apologized for not being clear about it. So let me once again try to clear this up.

I see people use the trolleys everyday. So you can't tell me that they are a disaster. I SEE THEM BEING USED CONSTANTLY. That does not mean that I think they are more effective than rail. Rail will encourage development, the trolleys will not. But one positive to the trolleys is that they are more versitile and pick up and drop off points can be changed as needed... So for the last time... pointing out the positive aspects of the trolleys does NOT mean that someone is against rail, or that that person does not see the benefits of rail.

All I want to know is if trolley stops will be added near new attractions, and how much longer the trolleys will operate.

[Just the facts]

I guess it comes down to what you think the purpose of a transportation system is. A lot of people think it is just a means to get from point A to point B and leave it at that. If you look at the bigger picture, transportation determines the locations of point A and B and can influence development patterns for generations. The more permanent the transportation infrastructure is the more influence it exerts.

Do 100 people ride the downtown trolley? Probably. Is anyone going to build a $30 million apartment building because it is on the trolley route? Nope. I am more interested in driving development for generations.

[Urban Pioneer]

*facepalm*
All I want to know is if trolley stops will be added near new attractions, and how much longer the trolleys will operate.

Good question. Folks, stop badgering the man! The "life span" of the existing trolley units is approximately 12 - 13 years before you can get rid of them. That is an FTA mandate since there are federal monies involved. Some of them have been refurbished. Some of them have not seen 12 - 13 years of continuous use as some were rotated "back-ups."

I would suspect that they will continue to run downtown until the streetcar system is running. If they are kept by COTPA, it would probably be for special event use and to reach areas not covered by the new streetcar system. Because the maintenance on them is somewhat intensive, I would suspect that new types of buses might replace hem ultimately.

Folks, people hate it when you subvert the thread. Back to topic which is C2S. There is a great deal of info out there now.

[Fantastic]

Thanks Urban Pioneer, that's exactly what I wanted to know.

[Urbanized]

...I'd also advise caution in assuming anything written under the byline of the story you posted is completely accurate.

While I understand your point, during that time frame I can tell you I was involved in a number of meetings, lunches and whatnot with people who were close to the matter (many of them people you know well also), who were very clear on the subject. The focus of the "transportation" project switched almost exclusively to discussion of a trolley circulator, with only lip service and loose "phase two" discussion of the I-40/Meridian link. The plan was to put rail in the streets downtown, have rubber tire service to I-40/Meridian, and (hopefully) eventually expand rail service to that location and elsewhere. You and I have a mutual friend who I'm sure would privately corroborate this.

Also, the thread has moved off-topic. Sorry for my role in the threadjack.

[jungmuny]

http://soundcloud.com/moderntransitp...maps-3-transit

Bullet points for the beginning and end because I skipped the convention center mess:
-Consultants proposed a Bricktown parking garage referred to as the U-haul site. Because Continental is moving in and also because of Thunder games, a north downtown garage became higher priority. Sites considered are 6th and Robinson, 9th/10th and Robinson, and another further west. The Bricktown garage is still under consideration supposedly.
-5-6 miles of streetcar were promised at $20 million a mile. 3-4 are currently being planned.
-Sante Fe depot got purchase approval.
-A city garage was sold to Sandridge for $8.6 million, which was used to pay all? outstanding bonds. This puts them in a position to get "back into debt"

Edit: Thanks for the fact checking Pete, somebody's paying attention! At 1.30 in the clip, they say they go from $45 m in debt to no debt, so I thought the parking garage covered the whole amount.

[Urban Pioneer]

Bullet points for the beginning and end because I skipped the convention center mess:
-Consultants proposed a Bricktown parking garage referred to as the U-haul site. Because Continental is moving in and also because of Thunder games, a north downtown garage became higher priority. Sites considered are 6th and Robinson, 9th/10th and Robinson, and another further west. The Bricktown garage is still under consideration supposedly.
-5-6 miles of streetcar were promised at $20 million a mile. 3-4 are currently being planned.
-Sante Fe depot got purchase approval.
-A city garage was sold to Sandridge for $45 million, which was used to pay all? outstanding bonds. This puts them in a position to get "back into debt"

I'd say the most interesting thing about this particular meeting is that it gives some "context" to what a great many "movers and shakers" are thinking in the C2S area.

I do have a problem with a great many of the opinions put forth expressed as if they constitute a "study." It was a survey with some respected planing firms giving the survey more weight.

Several of us have talked to several of the people interviewed, and even as a survey, it was completely unscientific with different questions asked of different people and no uniform context.

The thing that this "study" does illustrate is that many good ideas are sticking, many "mistakes" will be carried through, and there are still many uneducated people in urban design who are thrown into the middle of this plan. OKC is growing up, and is finally culminating the precursor to the final vision for the Park, Blvd, and CC site.

[Pete]

-A city garage was sold to Sandridge for $45 million, which was used to pay all? outstanding bonds. This puts them in a position to get "back into debt"

The Broadway-Kerr Garage was sold by COPTA to SandRidge for $8.6 million.

Not sure where that $45 million figure came from, but it's obviously way off.

[Snowman]

The Broadway-Kerr Garage was sold by COPTA to SandRidge for $8.6 million.

Not sure where that $45 million figure came from, but it's obviously way off.

I am not sure if this may be the case, but there was a discussion about selling multiple garages at city council what seems like a few months ago, it is possible the 45 million figure was the estimated sale prices of all the possible garages that may be sold combined.

[Pete]

The only garages sold other than Broadway-Kerr are the two City Center Garages, but that was a couple of years ago.

They have said they are negotiating to sell the Century Center garage but that hasn't happened yet.

[Pete]

Listening to this podcast, the whole idea of the survey presented in the meeting seems misguided.

Basically, they went to a bunch of downtown power players and asked for opinions of the streetcar (among other things) and you can tell that many of them are either completely uninformed or out-right against the system. They came back with comments "What is the need for this system? What is the projected ridership? What is the profile of the riders? What is the economic impact?"

All these questions are completely silly at this point. MAPS 3 has long been approved and the streetcar was the most popular part of it. Why even go out and solicit such questions at this point? It just puts negative rhetoric out to the public which in turn causes more negativity.

I don't blame the subcommittee for implying their years of work has been disrespected. I'd also argue that soliciting that sort of input at this stage is completely counter-productive.

This "survey" -- being incorrectly presented as a study -- was not very well thought out or executed. It's also clear that several powerful people downtown are working against the streetcar.