Streetcar

[Just the facts]

The biggest problem with DART is their reliance on Park and Ride. Gas goes up and people take the train. Gas goes down and people drive. What they should have focused on is connecting urban centers with urban centers. Train stations should not be replacing the freeway on-ramp. Rail should connect urban concentrations as a catalyst to recreate traditional pre-WWII neighbborhoods. Urban centers should then have local streetcar service. For example, downtown Dallas should have a streetcar network and downtown Plano should have a streetcar network. The two should be connected by a non-stop express train. Park and ride only allows urban sprawl to become worse - just like building more freeways. The ultimate goal of rail should be to take the car out of the equation. When you have park and ride the car is half the equation.

[OKCisOK4me]

Can we start a thread on DART cause even though its another streetcar, Im not finding the side banter as useful information for OKC streetcar updates.

[CaptDave]

The biggest problem with DART is their reliance on Park and Ride. Gas goes up and people take the train. Gas goes down and people drive. What they should have focused on is connecting urban centers with urban centers. Train stations should not be replacing the freeway on-ramp. Rail should connect urban concentrations as a catalyst to recreate traditional pre-WWII neighbborhoods. Urban centers should then have local streetcar service. For example, downtown Dallas should have a streetcar network and downtown Plano should have a streetcar network. The two should be connected by a non-stop express train. Park and ride only allows urban sprawl to become worse - just like building more freeways. The ultimate goal of rail should be to take the car out of the equation. When you have park and ride the car is half the equation.

That is a good point JTF. I spoke with a few people who stated they would use DART more often if there were "express" trains that ran to the major stations. I think perhaps part of the reason is there were so many municipalities that are in the DART coalition, they feel the need to serve all of them. (Maybe?)

Regarding ridership, I have yet to be on an empty train and I have used it at all times of the day. Obviously there will be peak periods as with any transit system - or highway.

Oil Capital - I have been stating what I have seen in the week I have been here and attempted to relate it to what a future OKC Metro system could be. I first came to the DFW area over twenty years ago and the development along their transit system is very apparent. I actually agree with you that the primary issue that would prevent the construction of a rail based transit system in OKC is the distance between the population centers and the cost to connect them to destinations. But that is typical of American cities and several have found ways to overcome that obstacle - I simply hope OKC will eventually do so as well.

OKC is a particularly egregious example of low density sprawl. You may very well be correct the cost for such a system is prohibitive with the expected revenue that can be raised. How to fund a regional system in OKC is the main issue that must be solved before anything can be started. I see the MAPS Streetcar system as a possible indicator of how transit might succeed in the central city, but again that does not solve the cost issue for a regional system.

[ou48A]

The reconstruction of US75 / central express way has had a huge impact on the construction buildup along this Dallas corridor.


I hope to take the Green line from the north end of the line to this year’s OU Texas game.
This will be my first trip on the Green line for OU Texas week end, any information about how this works ON GAME DAY would be appreciated.

[ljbab728]

The reconstruction of US75 / central express way has had a huge impact on the construction buildup along this Dallas corridor.


I hope to take the Green line from the north end of the line to this year’s OU Texas game.
This will be my first trip on the Green line for OU Texas week end, any information about how this works ON GAME DAY would be appreciated.

I've taken the red line and connected but never the green line all of the way. Expect the cars to be very full.

[CaptDave]

Probably the best place to catch the Green Line would be the Trinity Mills Park & Ride or maybe at the Green Line terminus in North Carrollton/Frankford. Should be more parking there than just about any other place that far north and then it is one train ride to Fair Park.

[Watson410]

Has there not been any new major news regarding OUR streetcar system? I couldn't careless about Dallas' system.

[ljbab728]

Has there not been any new major news regarding OUR streetcar system? I couldn't careless about Dallas' system.

No.

[CaptDave]

I missed the last MAPS Streetcar meeting but listened to a recording. The main points of discussion was the the scope of an engineering study and a recommendation to the City Council to direct Public Works to take the streetcar system and transit hub into consideration when evaluating the ODOT design for the new boulevard.

UP or anyone else who heard something different, please correct me if I missed something.

(The entire DART tangent is my fault - since this thread also covers transit beyond the streetcar, I related some of my observations on the Dallas system during the past week. Another poster took issue with personal observations and my further posts attempting to clarify what I was talking about only made the discussion go further astray. Didn't intend it to be a distraction; it was merely a statement about some things I have seen that worked well and could do the same in OKC.)

[ou48A]

I've taken the red line and connected but never the green line all of the way. Expect the cars to be very full.

Probably the best place to catch the Green Line would be the Trinity Mills Park & Ride or maybe at the Green Line terminus in North Carrollton/Frankford. Should be more parking there than just about any other place that far north and then it is one train ride to Fair Park.

Thanks for your responses.

Dart RAIL & BUS operates an OU - Texas game day special virtually the entire day, pretty much system wide.

Details of last year’s OU Texas Dart plans can be seen on the link below.

Assuming this is another 11 am game again, I will board the train at the North Carrollton/Frankford Station for MLK, Jr. Station at 7 AM or shortly thereafter. If I understand this correctly I won’t need to change trains and will be taken directly to the MLK station.

However after the game, I am unclear how I determine the difference between a Green Line train that goes back to the North Carrollton/Frankford Station and the Green Line circulator that rotates though down town and Fair Park and if I need to change trains on the way home. How will these be marked?

Between the people attending the game (about 92,000) and the people only attending the Fair (tens of thousands) I am a little concerned about the amount of back up that may occur after the game. The Green Line trains only hold about 500 passengers and they only depart every 10 minutes.

I know the residential and side streets that take you away from the Fair Park area well enough that I can usual eat a quick bite and drive home to Norman in about 4.5 hours after the game. I could do this in about 4 hours before they recently expanded the stadium,,,,,,
but I’m not sure if the train would really save me any time?

http://www.dart.org/statefair/statef...edriverrivalry


PS: Somebody with more DART knowledge than me should start a DART thread.
It would be helpful to those who seldom use the system and for other discussion proposes.

[CaptDave]

During normal operations it is the same Green line in Carrollton and at Fair Park. I am not sure about the time you might save - never been to an OU-TX game. I think not having to deal with the craziness of traffic around there alone might be worth taking the DART line. Every time I see traffic at a stand still on a highway while I am going past at 40 mph or so just reinforces my desire to use non-road based transit whenever possible.

[ljbab728]

I've been attending the OU - Texas game since 1965 so I'm very familiar with traffic issues both arriving to and leaving the game. I have to say that, even if you have to wait a little to get in one of the DART cars, it's much preferable to being stuck in traffic gridlock for up to an hour after the game. I always stay in Dallas on Saturday and go home on Sunday so I'm not sure if it would save you time getting home on Saturday.

[Oil Capital]

Regarding ridership, I have yet to be on an empty train and I have used it at all times of the day. Obviously there will be peak periods as with any transit system - or highway.

Oil Capital - I have been stating what I have seen in the week I have been here and attempted to relate it to what a future OKC Metro system could be. I first came to the DFW area over twenty years ago and the development along their transit system is very apparent. I actually agree with you that the primary issue that would prevent the construction of a rail based transit system in OKC is the distance between the population centers and the cost to connect them to destinations. But that is typical of American cities and several have found ways to overcome that obstacle - I simply hope OKC will eventually do so as well.

OKC is a particularly egregious example of low density sprawl. You may very well be correct the cost for such a system is prohibitive with the expected revenue that can be raised. How to fund a regional system in OKC is the main issue that must be solved before anything can be started. I see the MAPS Streetcar system as a possible indicator of how transit might succeed in the central city, but again that does not solve the cost issue for a regional system.

Regarding ridership, whatever your personal anecdotal experience, the experience of the DART rail system has not been good. The system increases ridership only when they've added lines and stations. Other than that, pretty much declining ridership on existing lines. And not particularly high ridership to begin with.

I think I see the problem with your observations of Dallas development. You apparently first came to Dallas when they were starting construction on their first rail line and therefore assume that all development in that/those corridor(s) is a result of the rail. That is simply not true. I first came to the DFW area almost 30 years ago, long before the first line started construction or the routes had even been determined and, guess what, there was development going on all up and down the US 75 corridor. An earlier poster was absolutely correct... that development accelerated when Central Expressway was widened, which is also about the time the rail opened. But the fact that 99% of the development has not been in any way transit-oriented makes it pretty clear which of those projects, if either, spurred the development.

Fortuitously, I found myself in the DFW area this weekend, so I spent some time looking at the Red and Green routes to see what TOD I had been overlooking.

Red Line:
Cityplace Station: There are a couple of low-rise apartment buildings near the station. I assume, but do not know that they have convenient connections to the station.

Mockingbird Station: The one true TOD that has developed.

Lovers Lane: Nothing

Park Lane: Nothing

Walnut Hill: Nothing

Forest Lane: Nothing

LBJ/Central: Nothing

Spring Valley: Nothing

At that point, I was so far into suburbia, I could no longer even pretend to care ;-)

Green Line:
Market Center: Nothing

Southwestern Medical Center/Parkland: There is a new-ish apartment complex within walking distance of the station. It's a stretch to call it TOD, and it probably has more to do with being near the medical district than the DART station.

Inwood/Love Field: Nothing

Burbank: Nothing

Bachman: Nothing

Walnut Hill: Nothing

Royal Lane: Nothing

Again, at this point, suburbia.

Regarding downtown housing development, it is instructive to consider that the rail line opened in 1996. Downtown Dallas residential development didn't take off until the middle of the next decade. It was not spurred by the rail line. After waiting for the rail line to spur housing development, as some had expected, Dallas finally bit the bullet and decided to poor many tens of millions of dollars (well over $150 Million to be sure) to spur housing development. (And oddly enough, even without rail or any imminent prospect of rail, OKC has managed to develop downtown residential on a scale probably in excess of that in Dallas, relative to the sizes of the cities.)

I am not by any means anti-rail. On balance I am pro-rail. But we should be realistic about rail will and will not do for a city.

[CaptDave]

Victory, Galatyn, Carrollton, Park Lane, West End, Akard, St Paul, and downtown Plano all have housing or retail in the immediate vicinity. A few of the stations were built specifically for Park & Ride, but that is a necessity when the ridership at the outlying areas is so spread out. Not ideal, but a realistic solution to reduce the number of single occupant cars clogging up the highway network.

We are obviously going to never find any point of agreement since evidently you need to continue to post rebuttals to anything that doesn't fit your interpretation of the reason behind development. I never once stated the DART system was 100% responsible for ALL the development in the region. But it is undeniable that the city center of Dallas has seen a dramatic increase in residential redevelopment / development since the DART light rail system was built and there have been several new developments along those corridors.

[ou48A]

I've been attending the OU - Texas game since 1965 so I'm very familiar with traffic issues both arriving to and leaving the game. I have to say that, even if you have to wait a little to get in one of the DART cars, it's much preferable to being stuck in traffic gridlock for up to an hour after the game. I always stay in Dallas on Saturday and go home on Sunday so I'm not sure if it would save you time getting home on Saturday.

They are going to start the reconstruction of I – 635 (LBJ) soon. This has been part of my normal driving path. So I need a new plan.
I have read that the average Dart rail train only travels at around 25 to 35 MPH. If I can find a secure place to park on the west side of Fair Park. I would probably save more time by doing this than if I took the slow train. But I have never parked on the west side and I am unfamiliar with this area?

They need to build additional ramps at the stadium….because by far the biggest source of congestion is just walking out of the stadium. It’s taken me as long as 45 minutes just to make my way out of the stadium since the new expansion. On the path I had been driving after the game once I’m 2 or 3 blocks out of the parking lot I encounter only normal traffic. I haven’t had any delays in many years in getting to the game, but I do arrive early enough to beat about 90% of the crowd.

[Snowman]

They are going to start the reconstruction of I – 635 (LBJ) soon. This has been part of my normal driving path. So I need a new plan.
I have read that the average Dart rail train only travels at around 25 to 35 MPH. If I can find a secure place to park on the west side of Fair Park. I would probably save more time by doing this than if I took the slow train. But I have never parked on the west side and I am unfamiliar with this area?

They need to build additional ramps at the stadium….because by far the biggest source of congestion is just walking out of the stadium. It’s taken me as long as 45 minutes just to make my way out of the stadium since the new expansion. On the path I had been driving after the game once I’m 2 or 3 blocks out of the parking lot I encounter only normal traffic. I haven’t had any delays in many years in getting to the game, but I do arrive early enough to beat about 90% of the crowd.

25-35 miles would not be surprising, the rail was tracks they share with cargo probably have a max of 55 mph, then factor in the time for slowing for stops, waiting for passengers to enter/exit and getting back up to speed

[CaptDave]

The speed may be faster than you think. I believe it approaches 60mph in some sections of the Green line. It will slow significantly in the downtown area of course but that is still around 25mph (a guess). Even if the actual peak speed of movement is slower than in a car on the highway, I think avoiding the hassle of creeping out of the stadium parking lot trying to get to the highway would be worth it.

[ou48A]

The speed may be faster than you think. I believe it approaches 60mph in some sections of the Green line. It will slow significantly in the downtown area of course but that is still around 25mph (a guess). Even if the actual peak speed of movement is slower than in a car on the highway, I think avoiding the hassle of creeping out of the stadium parking lot trying to get to the highway would be worth it.

From Dart’s official site
http://www.dart.org/newsroom/dartrailfacts.asp

Travel Speed: Top speed: 65 miles per hour.
Average speed: 25-35 miles per hour.


Once back to my vehicle and because of where I park it’s never taken me more than 10 minutes to make my way out of the largest parking lot on Fair Park property.

If I can find a place to park on the west side of Fair Park I am pretty sure the Train won’t be saving me any time.
+ I won’t be luging around my game day gear for as long.

[CaptDave]

I see - I suppose it would depend on how much stuff I carried around too. I tend to go very light to events like that.

[ou48A]

I see - I suppose it would depend on how much stuff I carried around too. I tend to go very light to events like that.

Along with binoculars and radio I go prepared to stay for any possible weather scenario, at all games.
Unless they are taking a knee I never leave a game until the final snap.
When the Sooners win the OU Texas game I always stick around until the coaches and players end their celebration and leave the field.
It's fun times……

[Just the facts]

I take the train whenever possible because the chances of being rear-ended by some teenager sending a text message or tweet is 0.00%.

[Buffalo Bill]

I take the train whenever possible because the chances of being rear-ended by some teenager sending a text message or tweet is 0.00%.

Maybe 0.001%

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/...52835520081002

[betts]

I hate to be cranky, but it's a pain to click here thinking there are new posts about our streetcar and find several pages of Dart discussion. Why don't you open a Dart/Dallas thread?

[CaptDave]

I know - sorry. It is my fault. I started out with something along the lines of how the successful aspects of DART could easily be part of OKC's future beginning with the streetcar....but then it went WAY off course.

[OKCisOK4me]

New thread for DART topics created. Continue there now:

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=31196