Convention Center

[Pete]

^

I don't disagree but we only have $13 million for land acquisition and we'll be lucky to get enough property for Phase I let alone future expansion that may never come.

[Spartan]

It's all apart of the convention center at the end of the day. The problem I have with waiting to buy expansion land is that we know it's going to skyrocket. We have a chance to buy land at $x/acre and by the time enough MAPS 4 money (assuming there will even be a MAPS 4) is sufficient, we'll have to pay 2$x/2.5$x/3$x per acre. Construction costs are not going to rise like that in the next 8 years. So instead of the Convention center costing taxpayers $550M overall, it will end up costing taxpayers $650M overall…That's not a win, and that's not how we should approach this project.

If we're presented with a plan that can survive without ever expanding, then proceed thusly. But if expansion is readily admitted as necessary, we need to prepare for that now, not repeat the cycle of becoming a victim of our own success. That's the worst misappropriation of funds/resources: Not learning from previous mistakes.

You talk about learning from past mistakes...what makes you so sure we will need an expansion? Glossing over your post I see $550-650 million referenced...I don't think that is EVER happening. Why the exuberance for a larger facility, rather than just a better facility? OKC needs to find something it can actually compete on.

[UnFrSaKn]

How would the Fairfield Inn fit into that Spartan?

[Spartan]

It doesn't...

[jccouger]

Attachment 10463Took my proposal a little further...

Eh, I don't really see how this could work. Sure, it probably meets the requirement for the amount of sq ft needed, but how could something so long & rectangular work for meeting space? The grand ballroom/meeting/exhibition space would not work well in something that is so limited from one side to the other.

[Teo9969]

Eh, I don't really see how this could work. Sure, it probably meets the requirement for the amount of sq ft needed, but how could something so long & rectangular work for meeting space? The grand ballroom/meeting/exhibition space would not work well in something that is so limited from one side to the other.

Pretty sure that's the least of the worries. 420x860 is not that awkward at all. No meeting rooms/ball rooms I've ever been in have been much bigger than a couple hundred feet by a couple hundred feet.

[Stickman]

Like I have said before, "great insight" on the part of the Tulsa developer.
Sure seems to throw a wrench into the C2S plans.

[Spartan]

Eh, I don't really see how this could work. Sure, it probably meets the requirement for the amount of sq ft needed, but how could something so long & rectangular work for meeting space? The grand ballroom/meeting/exhibition space would not work well in something that is so limited from one side to the other.

I respectfully disagree, both from a planning perspective and from a convention-experience perspective. It's an entire city block wide, from Broadway to Shields/EKG. We voted for a convention center hoping it wouldn't lay waste to our city. We didn't specifically vote for the largest possible super block, so we don't have to have that. A more slender site plan is the only way to balance the footprint needs with...not laying waste to the park, C2S, and downtown. I just really don't want to end up with the awful CC I know is coming...

It's actually pretty uncommon for a CC to just be a square site. Most cities actually try to not lay waste to downtown, whereas your implication seems that's the stated goal. There is nothing we truly gain from having a big square. In fact, in the Big Square we currently have we usually break the exhibition hall into long, slender spaces. The Columbus CC almost always has its 1M+ sf contiguous exhibition space broken down into halls A-F which are slender, more functional spaces.

Other slender CC's:
Dallas
Houston
Cleveland
Pittsburgh
Cincinnati
Kansas City
Dozens of other major cities

[Rover]

I respectfully disagree, but from a planning perspective and from a convention-experience perspective. It's an entire city block wide, from Broadway to Shields/EKG. We voted for a convention center hoping it wouldn't lay waste to our city. We didn't specifically vote for the largest possible super block, so we don't have to have that. A more slender site plan is the only way to balance the footprint needs with...not laying waste to the park, C2S, and downtown. I just really don't want to end up with the awful CC I know is coming...

It's actually pretty uncommon for a CC to just be a square site. Most cities actually try to not lay waste to downtown, whereas your implication seems that's the stated goal.

With the longer slender layout you could actually have more than one expo going at a time. No need to serially book expos which is inefficient.

Expo areas don't need vistas, or even windows. This is a good layout.

[Spartan]

Here's the very-competitive KC convention center, which they reeeeally placed out of the way of downtown (cantilevered over I-70).



KC's ED people might want a big new Indiana Center or Music City Center, but they're holding their own with a good, unique, and well-planned facility. Kudos to KC for balancing ther convention, tourism, and urban planning needs to get the best result for everyone. KC is a phenomenal city from whom we could learn a lot about the art and science of city-building.

[jccouger]

So we'd need 3 loading docks than, cause you wouldn't be able to drag stuff from one end to the other.

[Spartan]

That's reasonable, or maybe two on opposite ends. You could add another loading area along Shields.

[CaptDave]

Attachment 10463Took my proposal a little further...

This is the clear choice IMO.

[Just the facts]

While I like Spartans idea, I don't think the CC committe will go for it for one reason. The location isn't high profile enough. They maintain the CC is the center piece of MAPS III and this is hidden behind parking garages and the only major street frontage will be depressed 15 feet.

[Rover]

Hopefully they will be a little more pragmatic now.

[Hutch]

Here's the existing rail line from Santa Fe to the airport...



The line crosses Airport Road just north of Will Rogers and could easily be extended to near the terminal to provide direct rail transit service to downtown. It's possible that a stop could be created for direct service to the CC at the C2S site.

[Urbanized]

This is the clear choice IMO.

...based upon presently-available information, as you understand it. I am not trying to argue with you. This is true of every single opinion espoused here, my own opinion included.

[Spartan]

...based upon presently-available information, as you understand it. I am not trying to argue with you. This is true of every single opinion espoused here, my own opinion included.

Do you know something that we don't know, which makes you favor some other site/configuration?

[HOT ROD]

very good analysis of the transit viability of the C2S South site with access to both the Santa Fe station and the International Airport. Imagine major convention or two with folks arriving at the airport then wisked away via commuter rail train straight to downtown OKC and the CC. They could go straight to the CC, or into downtown to shop, or to their downtown hotel with easy walks or with a transfer to the streetcar. OMG, I'm even more excited about the C2S site - particularly Spartan's layout.

As for the Fairfield, couldn't the city just do a land-swap so Patel could face Central Park (and likely have a little more land for a garage)? Win-Win!

[Pete]

The cc committee meets next week and notice that the original site has been added back to the list of potentials.

Also, they will vote to approve another $265K for Populous for architectural services, raising that total to $19.6 million.

[Zorba]

Other slender CC's:
Dallas
Houston
Cleveland
Pittsburgh
Cincinnati
Kansas City
Dozens of other major cities

I've been to large events at both the Dallas and Cincinnati CCs and they both worked out really well.

Even though Las Vegas's convection center is huge and wide. The actual exhibit halls are long and slender, which has always worked out well when I have been there:



I think the slender approach makes it easier to see everything as a guest.

FYI Link to Cincinnati's floor plans and square footages. It is only one block wide. ::: Duke Energy Convention Center ::: : Floor Plans and Capacity Chart

Edit: I was thinking about this before then I noticed it on the Vegas CC. We could cap Shields with a second level. Especially since shields will be depressed. Could add some extra space and you could do something really cool like having a restaurant with a glass floor looking down on the road.

[David]

Vegas is a bit of a beast all of it's own when it comes to convention centers. I've been to sizable events there multiple times, but haven't been anywhere near the actual Vegas CC. My experience is with Mandalay Bay, which has a large enough facility to easily house a 6-8k person convention.

[Just the facts]

Las Vegas Convention Center - 1959

[Zorba]

Vegas is a bit of a beast all of it's own when it comes to convention centers. I've been to sizable events there multiple times, but haven't been anywhere near the actual Vegas CC. My experience is with Mandalay Bay, which has a large enough facility to easily house a 6-8k person convention.

Yeah. I've been to IAAPA in Vegas, which is huge, with tons of amusement rides inside and outside, with well more than 10K visitors. IIRC, it was only in the areas labeled S1, S2, parking lot and meeting rooms. That convention center just eats people. It is also ugly as sin from the outside.

[CaptDave]

...based upon presently-available information, as you understand it. I am not trying to argue with you. This is true of every single opinion espoused here, my own opinion included.

Whatever. That location is also more than the distance I measured from Bricktown according to you too. It has been the best within budget location all along for several reasons. These include proximity to future transit, close enough proximity to Bricktown, good location for CC hotel, reduced impact on other civic investments such as Myriad and Central Park, better use of the Ford dealer location for private development vs CC, and keeping the Cox block available for future development.

The Reno & Dewey location is intriguing for other reasons, but I think the other options all have fatal flaws that will probably preclude their selection.