SandRidge Center & Commons

[Steve]

I think what still upsets Doug and others is that they feel there was a very heavy hand used in forcing through the plan and that they saw rules, review procedures not being followed. It is a matter of record that the city switched which attorney staffed the board of adjustment on the last meeting, and that atty reversed previous counsel to the board, and that one side had more advance notice than the other of this action.
Anyway, that is history. It's over.

[earlywinegareth]

There are some who watched the fight over India Temple and the behavior of the so-called "urbanists" and came away from it concluding the urbanists were behaving in a fringe/lunatic manner over a building that was not worth saving. The historical significance wasn't really there to begin with...so what it was a temporary home of the legislature? It reminded me of the whole "George Washington slept here" way of determining historical significant sites back East. I stayed out of this thread for a long time just amazed and dismayed that people really thought that building could/should have been repurposed. I kept shaking my head wondering if any of those people actually went down there and looked at it in person or read SandRidge's reasoning for their decision? So yes, I do think some people on here showed judgment and expressed opinions that were not rational or realistic = silly. I suppose my bottom line on this is: pick your fights carefully.

[Popsy]

Doug, I think Early was referring to the idiots that kept slamming Sandridge for months after the matter was settled and still do to this day. Actually, I thought the ordeal was a good civics lesson. Dowtown business owners wanted those buildings torn down and they taught the preservationists and urbanists a lesson. I am just wondering if anyone learned from it.

[Doug Loudenback]

We certainly do disagree about this, earlywinegareth, but I'll refrain from calling you silly. Perhaps something will come along one day that you see is worth fighting for even if against the odds and we can agree about that in the future.

[Steve]

Popsy.... (oh never mind)

[Just the facts]

There are some who watched the fight over India Temple and the behavior of the so-called "urbanists" and came away from it concluding the urbanists were behaving in a fringe/lunatic manner over a building that was not worth saving. The historical significance wasn't really there to begin with...so what it was a temporary home of the legislature? It reminded me of the whole "George Washington slept here" way of determining historical significant sites back East. I stayed out of this thread for a long time just amazed and dismayed that people really thought that building could/should have been repurposed. I kept shaking my head wondering if any of those people actually went down there and looked at it in person or read SandRidge's reasoning for their decision? So yes, I do think some people on here showed judgment and expressed opinions that were not rational or realistic = silly. I suppose my bottom line on this is: pick your fights carefully.

You are confusing the urbanist and preservationist. We are NOT the same group of people.

[Just the facts]

Doug, I think Early was referring to the idiots that kept slamming Sandridge for months after the matter was settled and still do to this day. Actually, I thought the ordeal was a good civics lesson. Dowtown business owners wanted those buildings torn down and they taught the preservationists and urbanists a lesson. I am just wondering if anyone learned from it.

As an urbanist I am as happy as a puppy with two peters with the way Sandridge Commons is turning out. With the new building they get 4.5 JTF stars out 5. They are doing exactly what we asked them to do. Lesson learned. I'll let the preservationist speak for themselves.

[Steve]

Just the facts is correct; I strongly suspect urbanists would have split with preservationists if SandRidge had presented a clearer case for how they planned to proceed with the India Temple site. I do, however, think urbanists still would have opposed demolition of the Kermac Building on Robinson. But as stated before... it's history now.

[okcpulse]

Sandridge is making long-term decisions about its downtown environment that will, in the end, have a very positive impact on downtown. That meant making decisions that have a short-term impact on the immediate surrounding area that not everyone can agree with, and that is always going to come naturally. Whether we choose to see the big picture or adhere to our own philosophies on urban development is up to us. Ultimately, we all can agree that we are after a common goal, and that is to desire the best for our downtown, which is gaining admiration from visitors. Bottom line, that is what matters.

[Pete]

This looks like everything will turn out fine (which I said a long time ago) but it does not change the fact that SandRidge handled things very badly in the beginning. You can't blame people for being upset about them tearing down historical structures, especially when they provided no clear plan to rebuild at the time.

Popsy it's ironic you're slamming 'idiots' for not being able to let it go when you are the one that keeps dredging up a straw man just so you can denigrate.

[Steve]

One thing is for certain: when it comes to Doug Loudenback, if he is one of the targets of this comment, he is the last person I'd think of as being an "idiot." Only an idiot would think of him as such. Doug and I don't always see eye to eye, but I sure as heck respect him.

[Just the facts]

I do, however, think urbanists still would have opposed demolition of the Kermac Building on Robinson.

Hince the missing .5 JTF star.

I strongly suspect urbanists would have split with preservationists if SandRidge had presented a clearer case for how they planned to proceed with the India Temple site

To see proof of this just check out the Stage Center debate.

[betts]

One can also be both and urbanist and be pro-preservation. Most of us were interested in preserving only two of the buildings Sandridge demolished. I don't really consider corporate open space urbanist.

[Just the facts]

One can also be both and urbanist and be pro-preservation. Most of us were interested in preserving only two of the buildings Sandridge demolished. I don't really consider corporate open space urbanist.

There is still too much open space in my opinion and that is caused by the absence of Kermac. Why did you want to save the two building Betts? I wanted them to remain because I didn't want the open space Sandridge led us to believe was coming. My understanding is the preservation group wanted to save them for historical reasons. This is much like the current debate about Stage Center.

[BG918]

What about the spot north of TAP architecture?

I've always thought that surface lot between 4th and 5th would be perfect for a tower. Its such a gap in the urban fabric along Broadway as well as the lot between 5th and 6th..

[earlywinegareth]

Let's be pragmatic for a moment...before SandRidge announced its plan to demolish India Temple, was India Temple on anyone's agenda? Was there any kind of preservation movement? No, no one cared enough to do anything. The building had all the appeal of an outhouse and the actions and inaction of others allowed it go to the way of the wrecking ball.

But there's a lesson here that should apply to Stage Center. If people really care about saving it, then they need to act. Get organized, hold meetings, raise funds. Don't expect "them" or "they" to do anything and don't complain when Stage Center is torn down.

[gracefor24]

They own those parcels and they will be parking garages most likely.

While they are likely to include a garage I think those will end up being good sized buildings.

[Just the facts]

Let's be pragmatic for a moment...before SandRidge announced its plan to demolish India Temple, was India Temple on anyone's agenda? Was there any kind of preservation movement? No, no one cared enough to do anything. The building had all the appeal of an outhouse and the actions and inaction of others allowed it go to the way of the wrecking ball.

At the time of the Kerr McGee sale Kermac and India Temple were in the process of being converted to housing.

[mcca7596]

And where is housing most sorely needed? Why, the CBD, of course.

[Doug Loudenback]

Let's be pragmatic for a moment...before SandRidge announced its plan to demolish India Temple, was India Temple on anyone's agenda? Was there any kind of preservation movement? No, no one cared enough to do anything. The building had all the appeal of an outhouse and the actions and inaction of others allowed it go to the way of the wrecking ball.

You won't just let it go, will you, earlywinegareth? I tried to give you an opening for a comfort zone for both you and those who think differently than you, including me, but you just won't quit. I'll just say that, yes, others cared, and that you are mistaken when you say that the consensus (you didn't say consensus but you took it upon yourself to make the claim that) that the building had the appeal of an outhouse. Is it possible for you to just put criticism that others had about the SandRidge proposal down without attempting to belittle the position of many others who do not agree with your point of view? You are tending to be a fairly rude poster, earlywinegareth, in your sensibilities of others who disagree with you.

[wschnitt]

While they are likely to include a garage I think those will end up being good sized buildings.

How do you know this?
What would be the timetable for that?

[Steve]

I'm getting out the popcorn and getting comfortable in my seat. Hmmm.... where will Doug begin to blast away? With facts surrounding previous efforts to develop the buildings? With facts about Kerr-McGee's history of rebuffing such efforts prior to doing a deal with the Triangle boys? Or will Doug share photos of what could be seen underneath the concrete facade at the India Temple building? At what point will the opponent realize Doug is an attorney, and is no one's fool? Yep, this will be fun.

[UnFrSaKn]

[Steve]

I definitely will want to learn how to do that Michael Jackson icon UnFrSaKn!

[Patrick]

The new tower (~20 stories, maybe a little more, maybe a little less) is going in place of the current parking garage on the east side of the current tower. Sandridge is also buying the city-owned Broadway/Kerr garage across Broadway....east of the main property. The parcels to the north of TAP which are currently Sandridge-owned surface lots may possibly be turned into a large parking garage.