OG&E Tower

[OKCisOK4me]

My dad just called it a gerbil cage lol...

[jn1780]

Attachment 6228

I wonder if this might have been the inspiration

Looks like award winning work right there.

[BDP]

You know what could have been a win/win here...

OCURA could have put out an RFP for the property just south of the Stage Center site (which they largely own) and offered that site for free or a big discount if the winning party renovated and maintained the Stage Center.

The new owners could then use the Stage Center for meetings and such, and also lease it out for community arts groups and events.

Seems logical. But I think you may spend more time looking at downtown with a "whole is greater than the sum of its parts" perspective than the people actually controlling its development do.

This has got to be the most polarizing building of all time -- or very close.

And we can't have any of that here now can we? ; )

[BDP]

Can we get back to talking about the tower?

I'm sure once we see the renderings of a world class development, the discussion will turn to that. Right now, though, it's still more mystery than tower...

[Pete]

You know, the more I think about this the more I realize that no one with any real influence in OKC -- government or business -- seemed to care about this building.

Contrast Stage Center to the Skirvin, where the City moved heaven and earth to make the renovation happen. The City of OKC bought it outright then marshaled all types of money, resources and energy to find a developer and operator... And then gave everyone sweetheart deals. It proved to be the right thing to do and everyone involved has benefited greatly, including the broader community.

Yet, the City and the private sector just let the Stage Center flounder and rot almost since inception.


It's not only that SC didn't find a rich guardian angel, the City itself pretty much turned it's back on it.

If anyone of influence in local government had a passion for this building, it certainly could have been renovated and saved.

[flintysooner]

In my experience I was always one of a very small minority that really liked the Mummer's building. And even I thought the architect was nearly guilty of incompetence for the terrible flaws in the structure. And I never did see a way to rehabilitate the thing into something useful that would not continue being an absolute money pit.

The Biltmore was a little like that except there were a lot more people who liked it.

The Skirvin isn't that way at all. It is widely loved. There are generations of people who have celebrated one thing or another there. It is as much symbol and treasured memory as it is a hotel.

[SoonerDave]

You know, the more I think about this the more I realize that no one with any real influence in OKC -- government or business -- seemed to care about this building.

Contrast Stage Center to the Skirvin, where the City moved heaven and earth to make the renovation happen. The City of OKC bought it outright then marshaled all types of money, resources and energy to find a developer and operator... And then gave everyone sweetheart deals. It proved to be the right thing to do and everyone involved has benefited greatly, including the broader community.

Yet, the City and the private sector just let the Stage Center flounder and rot almost since inception.


It's not only that SC didn't find a rich guardian angel, the City itself pretty much turned it's back on it.

If anyone of influence in local government had a passion for this building, it certainly could have been renovated and saved.

Into what, though? The Skirvin's bones were always usable, at least in some theoretical way, even in its darkest days when refurbs and rehabs seemed the stuff of dreams. And the Skirvin was integrated into the City's consciousness as an element of the important things that went on in the city's history. It was not an end unto itself; it became worth preserving by virtue of its presence in and participation during the emergent history of OKC as it was being written. The SC's architectural uniqueness sentenced it to niche relevance, and as a result the place never resonated with the city's broader population.

I think there are plenty of people in the arthouse/business crowd who really wanted to save it, but those ugly realities of that niche utility just became too much to overcome. I'm willing to bet a few pennies that numerous folks with sufficiently deep pockets were quietly approached on the QT and asked to save the SC, but just as quietly (and even apologetically) declined because - at some point - the desire to rehab could never be reconciled with a practical way to get it done.

[Pete]

I didn't mean to imply I thought it should have been saved, as I still have very mixed feelings.

Just thought it was interesting that no one in City leadership lifted a finger. Says a lot that they didn't.

[BDP]

You know, the more I think about this the more I realize that no one with any real influence in OKC -- government or business -- seemed to care about this building.

Contrast Stage Center to the Skirvin, where the City moved heaven and earth to make the renovation happen. The City of OKC bought it outright then marshaled all types of money, resources and energy to find a developer and operator... And then gave everyone sweetheart deals. It proved to be the right thing to do and everyone involved has benefited greatly, including the broader community.

Yet, the City and the private sector just let the Stage Center flounder and rot almost since inception.


It's not only that SC didn't find a rich guardian angel, the City itself pretty much turned it's back on it.

If anyone of influence in local government had a passion for this building, it certainly could have been renovated and saved.

This is true. And it would really have to be about passion and a real love for all things unique to OKC. It was much easier to sell the skirvin renovation, and the headaches that went along with it, because the potential economic impact was much more tangible. Stage Center's impact is more along the lines of "it makes us more interesting, and some people like interesting, and so maybe it shows that we're not the staid homogenized city with no individuality that people think we are and, then, maybe we will see some economic benefit from expanding the demographic to which we can market ourselves...".

There aren't many people with millions of dollars to spend on development that would be interested in that argument, and I don't think any of them are in Oklahoma City.

That being said, there are a lot of small scale developments outside of the CBD that are helping make the city more interesting by embracing and cultivating different cultural aspects of the city. It would be nice to have more of that in the very center of the city, but I guess that's just a tough sell and it's probably time to realize that history and uniqueness of style are not going to be allowed to get in the way of any new development between about 4th and the river.

[Pete]

Here's an interesting thought... Among the OKC rich and powerful, I don't think any of them are preservationists.

Tom Ward. Aubrey McClendon and now Pete Delaney and Rainey Williams have certainly demonstrated they are the polar opposite. The Gaylords left downtown and built a suburban campus. David Green has shown zero interest in downtown (understandable given Hobby Lobby's needs) and it's too soon to tell about Harold Hamm, but I believe he was very interested in Stage Center at one time, and not to preserve it. Bill Cameron bought the old OPUBCO campus, Jeff Records fled downtown for I-44 and Broadway.

And if several of the buildings come down as expected on the Preftakes block, you can put Larry Nichols in that category as well. Although he has pumped millions into the Colcord.

Bob Howard is a notable exception.

The remainder of the restoration work has been done by the smaller local developer, not the big movers and shakers.

[Spartan]

Here's an interesting thought... Among the OKC rich and powerful, I don't think any of them are preservationists.

Tom Ward. Aubrey McClendon and now Pete Delaney and Rainey Williams have certainly demonstrated they are the polar opposite. The Gaylords left downtown and built a suburban campus. David Green has shown zero interest in downtown (understandable given Hobby Lobby's needs) and it's too soon to tell about Harold Hamm, but I believe he was very interested in Stage Center at one time, and not to preserve it. Bill Cameron bought the old OPUBCO campus, Jeff Records fled downtown for I-44 and Broadway.

And if several of the buildings come down as expected on the Preftakes block, you can put Larry Nichols in that category as well. Although he has pumped millions into the Colcord.

Bob Howard is a notable exception.

The remainder of the restoration work has been done by the smaller local developer, not the big movers and shakers.

PO is totally reliant on Devon, which threatened to pull funding for opposing SandRidge. So there's that.

[progressiveboy]

I do not always agree with the DO editorial board, however, I have to agree with the one below! They summed it up quite accurately! As I mentioned in an earlier thread, no one came up with a "viable" repurposing of this structure?




Unique Oklahoma City theater slated for its closing act | News OK

[Spartan]

I do not always agree with the DO editorial board, however, I have to agree with the one below! They summed it up quite accurately! As I mentioned in an earlier thread, no one came up with a "viable" repurposing of this structure?

Unique Oklahoma City theater slated for its closing act | News OK

Are you a proponent of buildings that have been restored and put to a viable use?

[Pete]

PO is totally reliant on Devon, which threatened to pull funding for opposing SandRidge. So there's that.

What is the PO?

And how do you know they were trying to pull strings for SandRidge? I'm not saying it isn't true but I don't remember this.

[soondoc]

We all talk about the State Center and it being leveled but what can anyone do to speed up the process to getting that nasty, disgusting cotton oil mill to go away? It has to be by FAR the most embarrassing part of our downtown area. I literally cringe every time I drive by it and wonder what other people from out of the area must think about OKC when they see this? At least with with SC, some saw it as interesting and had a cool factor to some.

What a good area that nasty eyesore cotton oil mill sits on. Someone could do some great things to connect it to the Bricktown and the river walk or even eventually the Park and River. I would like to see the Chickasaw Nation buy that and put some cool Hard Rock Hotel and Casino or as someone else mentioned a Margarittaville and have all lit up and really work it with the other developments because that would be awesome. Heck, it's going to be years before we ever get a convention center hotel so why not go ahead and build a cool one and force the hand of our leaders to get their heads out of their rear and get the ball rolling for the CC and Hotel.

[Spartan]

What is the PO?

And how do you know they were trying to pull strings for SandRidge? I'm not saying it isn't true but I don't remember this.

Preservation Oklahoma.

[progressiveboy]

Are you a proponent of buildings that have been restored and put to a viable use?

In most cases, I am definitely a proponent of restoration, especially to structures that are historical and can be re adapted into a viable option. I would love to see the Film Exchange restored as I strongly believe it can be incorporated into the new Central Park. Another loss to OKC was the India Shrine building that could have been saved from the wrecking ball! The one exception is the SC. It is no longer functional and makes no sense from an "economic" standpoint! I feel it is just a big money pit and no person ever can forward with a "viable" option and "deep pockets". I have accepted the board decision and it is time to move forward.

[OKVision4U]

We all talk about the State Center and it being leveled but what can anyone do to speed up the process to getting that nasty, disgusting cotton oil mill to go away? It has to be by FAR the most embarrassing part of our downtown area. I literally cringe every time I drive by it and wonder what other people from out of the area must think about OKC when they see this? At least with with SC, some saw it as interesting and had a cool factor to some.

What a good area that nasty eyesore cotton oil mill sits on. Someone could do some great things to connect it to the Bricktown and the river walk or even eventually the Park and River. I would like to see the Chickasaw Nation buy that and put some cool Hard Rock Hotel and Casino or as someone else mentioned a Margarittaville and have all lit up and really work it with the other developments because that would be awesome. Heck, it's going to be years before we ever get a convention center hotel so why not go ahead and build a cool one and force the hand of our leaders to get their heads out of their rear and get the ball rolling for the CC and Hotel.

I agree 1,000 %. They are not just an Eye Sore, but to the "outside investment" community, they are the one thing that could hold them back on any significant developments. We don't need to give them any reasons to hesitate or pause when making their initial accessments. It has to go quickly.

[bchris02]

I agree 1,000 %. They are not just an Eye Sore, but to the "outside investment" community, they are the one thing that could hold them back on any significant developments. We don't need to give them any reasons to hesitate or pause when making their initial accessments. It has to go quickly.

How can that happen without imminent domain?

I also agree that it is the most embarrassing part of downtown OKC, and it has such a high profile to people driving in from the east. It needs to go ASAP.

[SoonerDave]

What a good area that nasty eyesore cotton oil mill sits on. ... I would like to see the Chickasaw Nation buy that and put some cool Hard Rock Hotel and Casino

I'd rather give the cotton mill a lease in perpetuity on that land and leave the thing there forever than to have another ghastly casino on the Oklahoma landscape. They're a menace...but I realize this is the wrong thread for a discussion on the cotton gin...

[Spartan]

In most cases, I am definitely a proponent of restoration, especially to structures that are historical and can be re adapted into a viable option. I would love to see the Film Exchange restored as I strongly believe it can be incorporated into the new Central Park. Another loss to OKC was the India Shrine building that could have been saved from the wrecking ball! The one exception is the SC. It is no longer functional and makes no sense from an "economic" standpoint! I feel it is just a big money pit and no person ever can forward with a "viable" option and "deep pockets". I have accepted the board decision and it is time to move forward.

So what does moving forward mean? Would you want to see Stage Center pods go in parks or just vanish from the face of the earth?

[soondoc]

Yes, the Hard Rock in Tulsa is definitely a menace. It is probably one of the most recognizable structures that anyone from out of town could identify. It looks nice, has a cool factor to it, brings in lots of entertainers, and you almost feel like you are not in Oklahoma. It is somewhat a destination for many from out of the area. It is responsible for quite a few jobs and has started a growth in that area with business and highway construction because of it- contributing to even more construction jobs.

Sorry, I am not buying that Casino menace story. I am by no means a fan of all these casinos but I think a Hard Rock with a 20-25 story hotel would be great in that spot. They could even link it to the river somehow. That Cotton Mill is one of the ugliest things I have ever seen in a big city and in a big pain in our side when it comes to growth. Could the city not make an offer and re-locate them elsewhere? Also, could they use the grounds of it being such an hindrance in neighboring properties that it hurts other land owners values because no one will want to build and develop around it. That would be the approach or angle I think the city should use. It shouldn't be hard to prove that nobody would want to build next to that eyesore and it costs them lots of money because of it. Pay them and re-locate them and do something great in that spot.

[OKVision4U]

Yes, the Hard Rock in Tulsa is definitely a menace. It is probably one of the most recognizable structures that anyone from out of town could identify. It looks nice, has a cool factor to it, brings in lots of entertainers, and you almost feel like you are not in Oklahoma. It is somewhat a destination for many from out of the area. It is responsible for quite a few jobs and has started a growth in that area with business and highway construction because of it- contributing to even more construction jobs.

Sorry, I am not buying that Casino menace story. I am by no means a fan of all these casinos but I think a Hard Rock with a 20-25 story hotel would be great in that spot. They could even link it to the river somehow. That Cotton Mill is one of the ugliest things I have ever seen in a big city and in a big pain in our side when it comes to growth. Could the city not make an offer and re-locate them elsewhere? Also, could they use the grounds of it being such an hindrance in neighboring properties that it hurts other land owners values because no one will want to build and develop around it. That would be the approach or angle I think the city should use. It shouldn't be hard to prove that nobody would want to build next to that eyesore and it costs them lots of money because of it. Pay them and re-locate them and do something great in that spot.

..and this could not happen soon enough. It is what we call a "deal" killer.

A High-End Casino w/ a 30 story tower, ....that would be a great location.

[bchris02]

Yes, the Hard Rock in Tulsa is definitely a menace. It is probably one of the most recognizable structures that anyone from out of town could identify. It looks nice, has a cool factor to it, brings in lots of entertainers, and you almost feel like you are not in Oklahoma. It is somewhat a destination for many from out of the area. It is responsible for quite a few jobs and has started a growth in that area with business and highway construction because of it- contributing to even more construction jobs.

Sorry, I am not buying that Casino menace story. I am by no means a fan of all these casinos but I think a Hard Rock with a 20-25 story hotel would be great in that spot. They could even link it to the river somehow. That Cotton Mill is one of the ugliest things I have ever seen in a big city and in a big pain in our side when it comes to growth. Could the city not make an offer and re-locate them elsewhere? Also, could they use the grounds of it being such an hindrance in neighboring properties that it hurts other land owners values because no one will want to build and develop around it. That would be the approach or angle I think the city should use. It shouldn't be hard to prove that nobody would want to build next to that eyesore and it costs them lots of money because of it. Pay them and re-locate them and do something great in that spot.

I agree completely.

As for casinos, I would be against a run of the mill casino like the numerous ones lining I-40 between here and Arkansas in that location. However, something like what Tulsa has in the Hard Rock or what they are getting in the Margaritaville would be an entirely different ballgame and could integrate well with downtown and would be a much better use of the land than the Producers Coop.

That said, I am not advocating a casino per-say. I simply want to see the Producers Coop gone and something cool developed in its place. A casino would be better than the eyesore and stereotype-confirming menace that currently sits there.

[Rover]

So, is that where we are putting the Stage Center Tower?