Convention Center

[Urbanized]

I don't think people realize how much of a magnet that store STILL is for the area. I always have customers from out of town stop in there while they are here. Maybe Urbanized can confirm/deny.

You're correct, Bass Pro is still very busy pretty much all of the time, and still draws an amazingly large contingent of out-of-towners. Pete is also right that a huge percentage of them drive there, shop, get back in the car and leave the area without buying so much as a cup of coffee elsewhere. That could have been avoided or greatly mitigated with the exact same store and location, but with better land use that encourages walkable interaction with the rest of the district. This would have also been a benefit for Bass Pro, as I can guarantee you that many people already in the district don't walk into BP, yet would if it didn't feel so remote and detatched. I do think that there are ways that it could be retrofitted. For instance, allowing small permanent retail structures to follow the "stream" that leads from the store to the canal.

By the way, you would also be surprised at how much of Bricktown's business revolves around Harkins. In fact I think it was much more of a game-changer for the district than BP was, since it is better integrated with the district and serves as one portion of a visit to BT rather than as the entire visit.

[David]

Back when we were using Harkins as out main theater, we would regularly walk up the canal for lunch afterwards.

[Spartan]

Why stop at Harkins? Let's get some D9 dozers from Todd Hoffman and Parker, then bring in Tony Beets to oversee it. That site will be cleared by noon tomorrow.

You could just ask any of the developers in town, particularly the out-of-state group behind Maywood Apartments 2, or the 400 N Walnut thing. Pro bono demo.

[kevinpate]

Lower BT may not be all that and a bag of chips when it comes to appearance, but there is a lot of money flowing in through there. Pretty, ugly, or pretty ugly, it's not a waste of space.

[Architect2010]

Lower BT may not be all that and a bag of chips when it comes to appearance, but there is a lot of money flowing in through there. Pretty, ugly, or pretty ugly, it's not a waste of space.

Certainly not a waste, as I enjoy Centennial Plaza and the surrounding structures that promote an enclosed, urban vibe. It's the rest of Lower Bricktown that is a mess of valuable real estate and parking lots. Unfortunately that "mess" represents a majority of LB's land area.

I know the Convention Center wouldn't be able to fit on the UHaul site but it would go a long ways towards using some of the underutilized land in Lower Bricktown/South of Reno. The expanded concept of our Santa Fe Intermodal Hub does show a parking garage and relocated bus station on that site however.

[Bellaboo]

The numbers at that Bass Pro have consistently outperformed projections, so they are clearly doing pretty well at that spot.

But almost certainly the people shopping there all drive in and drive out without walking anywhere else.

I haven't been in there for several years and then last month I stopped in twice on the way home from work and spent $250.

[bchris02]

Regarding Bass Pro, I wonder if their presence has helped other businesses in Bricktown. The original intention of subsidizing Bass Pro in its current location was as a means to bring people downtown who wouldn't otherwise go there. I wonder how much it has actually helped.

[Just the facts]

Regarding Bass Pro, I wonder if their presence has helped other businesses in Bricktown. The original intention of subsidizing Bass Pro in its current location was as a means to bring people downtown who wouldn't otherwise go there. I wonder how much it has actually helped.

I was actually surprised by the number of people there, but as it has been said early, there isn't any adjacent Bass Pro Oriented Development. Of course, BP itself might not be the problem since there is no adjacent retail space to rent even if someone wanted to open a store.

[warreng88]

Saw this and thought it was a little interesting:

Exciting changes on tap for George R. Brown Convention Center and Houston Convention District | Houston Blog

[jn1780]

You're correct, Bass Pro is still very busy pretty much all of the time, and still draws an amazingly large contingent of out-of-towners. Pete is also right that a huge percentage of them drive there, shop, get back in the car and leave the area without buying so much as a cup of coffee elsewhere. That could have been avoided or greatly mitigated with the exact same store and location, but with better land use that encourages walkable interaction with the rest of the district. This would have also been a benefit for Bass Pro, as I can guarantee you that many people already in the district don't walk into BP, yet would if it didn't feel so remote and detatched. I do think that there are ways that it could be retrofitted. For instance, allowing small permanent retail structures to follow the "stream" that leads from the store to the canal.

By the way, you would also be surprised at how much of Bricktown's business revolves around Harkins. In fact I think it was much more of a game-changer for the district than BP was, since it is better integrated with the district and serves as one portion of a visit to BT rather than as the entire visit.

I don't know who had the bright Idea to have the parking lot facing west. It would have been so much better it they either built a corner entrance or two entrances and had the building built where the current parking lot is.

[bchris02]

I don't know who had the bright Idea to have the parking lot facing west.

Agreed. Bass Pro could have been integrated into the district at no additional cost and on the exact same land, yet they decided to go with a standard big box. Having the parking lot facing east and the building interacting with the canal would have helped Bricktown, the canal, and Bass Pro. It would have been a win for everyone.

[Spartan]

You're correct, Bass Pro is still very busy pretty much all of the time, and still draws an amazingly large contingent of out-of-towners. Pete is also right that a huge percentage of them drive there, shop, get back in the car and leave the area without buying so much as a cup of coffee elsewhere. That could have been avoided or greatly mitigated with the exact same store and location, but with better land use that encourages walkable interaction with the rest of the district. This would have also been a benefit for Bass Pro, as I can guarantee you that many people already in the district don't walk into BP, yet would if it didn't feel so remote and detatched. I do think that there are ways that it could be retrofitted. For instance, allowing small permanent retail structures to follow the "stream" that leads from the store to the canal.

By the way, you would also be surprised at how much of Bricktown's business revolves around Harkins. In fact I think it was much more of a game-changer for the district than BP was, since it is better integrated with the district and serves as one portion of a visit to BT rather than as the entire visit.

Agreed that Bass Pro could be retrofitted... But will it? Likely never. It comes down to what Bass Pro wants, and whether or not urbanism really favors them, they don't want it. They made a brand decision for a regional store.

We are losing all of our historic building stock. This CC is likely going to take away even more historic building stock. When the options are to demo everything on Main Street (talk about an unlucky address lately), or to tear down something in LB, which is a better option? Those buildings on Main have good uses in them, and will last forever. Those bldg's in LB have okay uses and a limited life span ahead of them, and the land is held by a developer who is in noncompliance with OCURA with zero intentions of finishing the project in a realistic time frame.

[Just the facts]

The Bass Pro building is owned by the City. Bass Pro has a 20 year lease which is coming up soon. As for Spartan's Main Street comment, OKC will soon rival Jax as the largest city with no businesses with a Main St address.

[BDP]

Lower BT may not be all that and a bag of chips when it comes to appearance, but there is a lot of money flowing in through there. Pretty, ugly, or pretty ugly, it's not a waste of space.

There's actually a lot of wasted space. I think the success of what is there only goes to show what a missed opportunity it was.

[Pete]

The Bass Pro building is owned by the City. Bass Pro has a 20 year lease which is coming up soon. As for Spartan's Main Street comment, OKC will soon rival Jax as the largest city with no businesses with a Main St address.

Whatever lease the City has with Bass Pro no doubt contains options that BP can exercise and you can bet they will.

[Bellaboo]

The Bass Pro building is owned by the City. Bass Pro has a 20 year lease which is coming up soon. As for Spartan's Main Street comment, OKC will soon rival Jax as the largest city with no businesses with a Main St address.

Not to be too nitpicking here, but 900 W. Main will be dynamite.

[Stickman]

After Steve's chat today in the Daily I wonder what the Monday meeting will be like? Maybe a lot of finger pointing, huh?

[Urbanized]

I don't know who had the bright Idea to have the parking lot facing west. It would have been so much better it they either built a corner entrance or two entrances and had the building built where the current parking lot is.

Agreed. Bass Pro could have been integrated into the district at no additional cost and on the exact same land, yet they decided to go with a standard big box. Having the parking lot facing east and the building interacting with the canal would have helped Bricktown, the canal, and Bass Pro. It would have been a win for everyone.

I actually wrote a column suggesting exactly this in The Gazette circa June 2002. This was before I was in my current role and written only as an interested citizen with some urban redevelopment training. It was also before any of the public nastiness regarding funding and the feud between OPUBCO and The Gazette; in fact I think it was the very first printed article or opinion piece of any type critical of any aspect of the BP deal. I am hardly a BP apologist, but it has definitely provided a good return on investment; just not as good as it COULD have been.

[Spartan]

The Bass Pro building is owned by the City. Bass Pro has a 20 year lease which is coming up soon. As for Spartan's Main Street comment, OKC will soon rival Jax as the largest city with no businesses with a Main St address.

Claw back baby. Land assembly nightmare over.

[Just the facts]

After walking around the area and looking at all the options discussed here I think I am coming to the conclusion that the COX site is going to be the best option, but it will take some creative thinking to make it blend in with the area and I doubt we can build any of the exhibit halls underground, which is too bad because I really want that superblock gone. I am thinking that there will need to be decorative entrances facing the Arena, Santa Fe, and Broadway but on the MBG side they can build the convention hotel. The loading docs will have to be inside the building and to save space they can use air bearings to move them.

[Stickman]

So are you saying the other two options: Howard/Hall or the South of the Arena are off the table completely?

[HangryHippo]

After walking around the area and looking at all the options discussed here I think I am coming to the conclusion that the COX site is going to be the best option, but it will take some creative thinking to make it blend in with the area and I doubt we can build any of the exhibit halls underground, which is too bad because I really want that superblock gone. I am thinking that there will need to be decorative entrances facing the Arena, Santa Fe, and Broadway but on the MBG side they can build the convention hotel. The loading docs will have to be inside the building and to save space they can use air bearings to move them.

Agreed. I really do think it's the best solution. And that allows Hall and Howard to hopefully develop something truly kickass on the lot they own.

[Just the facts]

So are you saying the other two options: Howard/Hall or the South of the Arena are off the table completely?

The problem I am seeing south of the boulevard is that a super block in that area will cut-off traffic trying to get into the area from Shields, Everyone would have to funnel onto the boulevard to get to any place in core to shore, which will make traffic horrendous, and make the convention center even more isolated for pedrstrians. No east-west access for cars between SW25th and the boulevard because of the park will be bad enough.

[Stickman]

Parking garage????????? lol

Hopefully something better.

[Pete]

The problem I am seeing south of the boulevard is that a super block in that area will cut-off traffic trying to get into the area from Shields, Everyone would have to funnel onto the boulevard to get to any place in core to shore, which will make traffic horrendous, and make the convention center even more isolated for pedrstrians. No east-west access for cars between SW25th and the boulevard because of the park will be bad enough.

Using the Cox Center would totally cut off the expansion of the CBD to the south and perpetuate the super block that already sits in the middle of downtown.

The cc is going to create a super block no matter where you put it.