Big retailer is eyeing OKC & Tulsa

[bchris02]

I would kill for a Costco here! What is this source that Pete speaks of?

The number one thing delaying Costco is the liquor laws. They probably will come here regardless eventually, but they would already be here if they could sell wine.

[Soonerman]

The number one thing delaying Costco is the liquor laws. They probably will come here regardless eventually, but they would already be here if they could sell wine.

Yet they have stores in Colorado and Kansas.

[jerrywall]

Yet they have stores in Colorado and Kansas.

Which jives with the first half of the second sentence.

[zookeeper]

Yet they have stores in Colorado and Kansas.

I'm pretty sure that all the Kansas Costco locations are in Johnson County. Johnson County is a strange bird. It is less a part of Kansas and more part of the wealthy suburbs of Kansas City, MO. One of the wealthiest counties in the country.

I agree it has to change. For years it was said the closest thing Oklahoma has to organized crime, with ties to NE crime families and the whole bit, is the liquor package stores. I have a feeling that's changed. Maybe legislators can at least pass a county option for non-package store retail sales like they did back in the day for liquor by the drink.

[bchris02]

I'm pretty sure that all the Kansas Costco locations are in Johnson County. Johnson County is a strange bird. It is less a part of Kansas and more part of the wealthy suburbs of Kansas City, MO. One of the wealthiest counties in the country.

I agree it has to change. For years it was said the closest thing Oklahoma has to organized crime, with ties to NE crime families and the whole bit, is the liquor package stores. I have a feeling that's changed. Maybe legislators can at least pass a county option for non-package store retail sales like they did back in the day for liquor by the drink.

I totally agree with this. Oklahoma should adopt Arkansas' liquor laws which are similar to what you describe. Arkansas is also a conservative state, possibly even moreso than Oklahoma. Their laws are as follows.

*Full strength beer and wine in grocery stores
*Hard liquor only in package stores
*Liquor by the drink 7 days/week
*No Sunday sales at grocery stores or package stores
*Counties can pass stricter laws up to and including total prohibition

I think this would be an excellent compromise.

[zachj7]

Has there been any bill to make some sort of compromise on the absurd alcohol laws? Would something like the Arkansas Alcohol laws be shot down here in OK? I am already excited about my special trip next week down to Dallas to get some trader joe's and go to Costco and Ikea. It would be so nice if we could have some of that up here.

[zookeeper]

Has there been any bill to make some sort of compromise on the absurd alcohol laws? Would something like the Arkansas Alcohol laws be shot down here in OK? I am already excited about my special trip next week down to Dallas to get some trader joe's and go to Costco and Ikea. It would be so nice if we could have some of that up here.

That's one benefit of living in Oklahoma City. We live so close and an easy drive to a great American metropolitan area in DFW.

[bradh]

No Sunday sales at grocery stores? No thanks

[bchris02]

No Sunday sales at grocery stores? No thanks

I would gladly trade watered down 3.2 beer on Sundays for being able to get cold full-strength beer and wine the other six days of the week.

[bradh]

I probably would to, but don't you think that's even more ridiculous? Just mirror Texas' liqour laws...and build a Spec's in Oklahoma City.

[Bunty]

I totally agree with this. Oklahoma should adopt Arkansas' liquor laws which are similar to what you describe. Arkansas is also a conservative state, possibly even moreso than Oklahoma. Their laws are as follows.

*Full strength beer and wine in grocery stores
*Hard liquor only in package stores
*Liquor by the drink 7 days/week
*No Sunday sales at grocery stores or package stores
*Counties can pass stricter laws up to and including total prohibition

I think this would be an excellent compromise.

Once again, due to their small population, I don't think we need the approval of the rural counties to make liquor laws less strict for the more populated counties, who desire it. I bet you have to go back prior to 1984 before a pro state alcohol question was turned down by the voters. So, I hope the proposal to allow grocery stores to sell wine in the 15 most populated counties gets on the ballot and approved to prove the validity of my point. Surely, we don't have to join with Arkansas and adopt the most prohibitive and liberty robbing options of its alcohol regulations and the added confusion that would go with it. After all, the year is 2013!

Besides that, in my opinion, I think the main hold up in reforming overly restrictive alcohol laws is the desire on the part of legislators to cater to the liquor store owners and their monopolistic like merchandising needs, not the people in rural counties.

In return for allowing grocery stores to sell wine, I think liquor store owners should be permitted to sell refrigerated beer and most anything else the alcohol customer may need.

[bluedogok]

I probably would to, but don't you think that's even more ridiculous? Just mirror Texas' liqour laws...and build a Spec's in Oklahoma City.

As it is Spec's couldn't open up a store in Oklahoma unless they had a family member living there for a long time. I couldn't open up a liquor store in Oklahoma since I haven't lived in Oklahoma for the last 10 years even though I lived 37 of my 49 years there. The liquor laws in Oklahoma are some of the most protectionist sets of laws there can be.

Someone local could open up a large liquor store but couldn't sell items that "aid consumption" like selling glasses or food like Spec's carries. We have an 80,000 sf liquor store out in Littleton even though we have similar laws in terms of ownership in Colorado (the 10 year residency requirement is not one of them) in that a person can only hold one liquor store license. That is why Whole Foods (Boulder), Trader Joe's (Denver), King Soupers (Glendale) only has one store with liquor, the rest have 3.2 beer and no wine. Tipsy's Liquor World is more like Spec's than a typical liquor store here and in Oklahoma. Liquor stores are open on Sunday here, including the external, leased store adjacent to Sam's Club, I don't recall the similar stores at the Costco stores here like they had in Austin.

[bradh]

Bunty your last sentence hits the nail on the head. Its such a simple solution. I'd still buy beer from Wild Turkey because they'll carry more than a Crest or Buy for Less.

Just having the option to get wine somewhere other than communion on Sundays would be nice.

Bluedog...didn't know about those rules, what a joke. Spec's is so awesome it would blow away Oklahomans wwho know nothing but the liqour stores here.

[bluedogok]

For the most part every state has some screwy things about their liquor laws, Oklahoma isn't the only one. The last time that I was in Boston they still only sold alcohol in package stores, no beer or wine in Whole Foods or anywhere else. My father remembers when Virginia still had a display in state owned liquor stores and a clerk had to go back and get what you "ordered". Then you had the wet/dry areas in Dallas County by voting district until just a few years ago. I remember having Unicard or private club card for bars/restaurants in "dry areas" from back when I lived in Dallas. It was always easy to tell the wet/dry line from all the liquor stores at the line like on Greenville between Royal Lane and Walnut Hill Lane.

There was an article about Spec's and Twin Liquors in the Austin Chronicle back when Spec's entered the Austin market. Spec's is an interesting case on the Texas liquor laws, it is a "family owned company". It seems that one person can hold five liquor store licenses in Texas, those licenses can be "pooled together" between family members under a brand, that is how Spec's (and others) have so many stores. The license holder is responsible for the store he holds the license for, I think one married couple of the family has ten licenses for the Central Texas area one of them is in the same family as the Spec's founders in Houston. Only family members by blood or marriage are able to pool their licenses in such a manner.

I loved Spec's, went to the one in Sunset Valley quite often and many times left with food items and without anything containing alcohol.

[GaryOKC6]

Has there been any bill to make some sort of compromise on the absurd alcohol laws? Would something like the Arkansas Alcohol laws be shot down here in OK? I am already excited about my special trip next week down to Dallas to get some trader joe's and go to Costco and Ikea. It would be so nice if we could have some of that up here.

Oklahoma's liquor laws are written into the state constitution 16 different times. To change it the people would have to vote to amend the state constitution 16 different times. There is a push to get it on one of the future ballots but this will be a complicated bill. It will be very wordy and ask you "yes" or "no" on each proposed change and all 16 will have to pass or it won't happen. I wish it were a simple question on a ballot or a bill that can be passed but that is not the case.

[zachj7]

That's one benefit of living in Oklahoma City. We live so close and an easy drive to a great American metropolitan area in DFW.

If Omaha, Overland Park, and Des Moines can support a Costco, I see no reason why OKC can't support them. They don't even sell wine at the KS location. Pull yourself together OKC.

[bchris02]

If Omaha, Overland Park, and Des Moines can support a Costco, I see no reason why OKC can't support them. They don't even sell wine at the KS location. Pull yourself together OKC.

There isn't much OKC can do other than to force all of West Edmond to move to the area around Nichols Hills, creating enough high-income density to meet the criteria many of these national retailers require when selecting a new location. All national retailers look at is numbers and despite its size and growth, OKC still looks very risky on paper. Until OKC has a more contiguous area of high-income residents, it will continue to lose out in terms of retail.

[bluedogok]

There isn't much OKC can do other than to force all of West Edmond to move to the area around Nichols Hills, creating enough high-income density to meet the criteria many of these national retailers require when selecting a new location. All national retailers look at is numbers and despite its size and growth, OKC still looks very risky on paper. Until OKC has a more contiguous area of high-income residents, it will continue to lose out in terms of retail.

They also fail to realize that people in OKC will drive farther than people in other markets might, this is where all their marketing analysis fails them. Many people in Austin think anything on the other side of the river needs a trip planned in advance, I knew very few in OKC who had such a tiny "life bubble" like many of the people that I knew in Austin. I know that a friend at Whole Foods said the corporate types were shocked at how the OKC store attracted people from all over the metro, they completely underestimated the market demand and willingness of people to drive to the store.

[onthestrip]

There isn't much OKC can do other than to force all of West Edmond to move to the area around Nichols Hills, creating enough high-income density to meet the criteria many of these national retailers require when selecting a new location. All national retailers look at is numbers and despite its size and growth, OKC still looks very risky on paper. Until OKC has a more contiguous area of high-income residents, it will continue to lose out in terms of retail.

It's not really density. It's a lack of quality retail centers. There are just very few decent developments that these national guys would even consider, and the few good ones are basically full. We can blame sprawl or density issues but its simply a lack of good shopping centers

[bchris02]

It's not really density. It's a lack of quality retail centers. There are just very few decent developments that these national guys would even consider, and the few good ones are basically full. We can blame sprawl or density issues but its simply a lack of good shopping centers

I think both are contributing factors, however I have no doubt quality developments would happen here if developers had confidence in this market. That's when it goes back to the number of high income residents within a specific number of miles from a perspective location. This is where OKC fails. Nichols Hills, Edmond, Gaillardia, Westmoore, Heritage Hills, etc are all too far apart to fall within an acceptable radius from said perspective location. They run the same numbers in Tulsa, Omaha, and Des Moines and they look much, much better.

If all of the aforementioned areas were packed next to each other in North Central OKC, we would probably have a Nordstrom, Saks, Crate & Barrel, Central Market, etc by now.

[bluedogok]

Most of the developments in OKC are local developers, 2008 killed any momentum they had going towards nice, new developments.

Maybe all but Central Market since HEB/CM has not expanded outside of Texas except for the Mexico joint venture which is a separate entity.

[Bunty]

Oklahoma's liquor laws are written into the state constitution 16 different times. To change it the people would have to vote to amend the state constitution 16 different times. There is a push to get it on one of the future ballots but this will be a complicated bill. It will be very wordy and ask you "yes" or "no" on each proposed change and all 16 will have to pass or it won't happen. I wish it were a simple question on a ballot or a bill that can be passed but that is not the case.

You make it confusing. Then how did the question to allow liquor stores to open during election day hours get on the ballot as the only alcohol related question several years ago? Because that worthless law wasn't in the state constitution?

[bchris02]

Most of the developments in OKC are local developers, 2008 killed any momentum they had going towards nice, new developments.

Maybe all but Central Market since HEB/CM has not expanded outside of Texas except for the Mexico joint venture which is a separate entity.

True. There were several that were proposed that were cancelled because of the economic collapse. It came at a terrible timing for OKC. If it would have held off another year I think some stuff could have been built, and while it may have taken a while to fully lease it it would have eventually happened and we would now have much better retail in this city.

[GaryOKC6]

You make it confusing. Then how did the question to allow liquor stores to open during election day hours get on the ballot as the only alcohol related question several years ago? Because that worthless law wasn't in the state constitution?

That was written into the state constitution as well. That was why it was on the ballot. That was toe only issue at the time. The retail strong beer & wine is much more complicated. One down and 16 more to go.

[G22]

I just heard that Costco has signed a letter of intent to build a store in North Oklahoma City. Has anyone heard more details about this?