Quail Springs Mall

[Chadanth]

They're not going to upgrade the Dillard's because the sales just aren't there. Poor return on the investment.

I wonder if the sales just aren't there because the store sucks....

[bchris02]

I wonder if the sales just aren't there because the store sucks....

Right. I think that was the problem with the QSM Macy's location. Why go there when Penn Square isn't that far and is so much better? Dillard's at QSM is in a similar predicament. The location at Penn Square is very nice and is also much larger, with separate stores for men and women. Dillard's is in better shape financially so it would be cool if they would consider upgrading the store at Quail Springs Mall.

[Patrick]

I wonder if the sales just aren't there because the store sucks....

Problem is the other stores aren't any better. You've had several national retailers pull out of the mall completely because their sales were so low, especially compared to their other stores at Penn.

[Plutonic Panda]

Even Penn's stores aren't that great. OKC's retail market just sucks in general. Not in terms of sales, but of how nice the stores are compared to L.A. and Dallas. Now that may be the case in other cities the size of OKC because when I go to other cities I don't go into their shopping malls or department stores unless I've lived there and the only cities I've lived in are Oklahoma City, Dallas, and Los Angeles.

However I went with my girlfriend in the St. Louis Galleria and the department stores there were really nice. Much nicer than the OKC ones.

[SoonerDave]

Problem is the other stores aren't any better. You've had several national retailers pull out of the mall completely because their sales were so low, especially compared to their other stores at Penn.

After having done some Christmas shopping at QSM, I can attest to the lack of foot traffic. My wife and I went there just about a week before CHristmas, give or take, and the traffic in the mall "common areas" was pretty heavy, but the traffic in any given store - Macy's in particular - was slim to none. I was really surprised. And Macy's wasn't the only store like that.

I think their food court area should be more of an attraction than it is with the theater tie-in. We were shopping and wanted to grab a bite, but among our family of four we couldn't find a place that looked very compelling. Judging from the unoccupied seats, we weren't the only ones - I contrast that with the seemingly constantly busy food court at Penn Square and the contrast is undeniable.

I don't get Von Maur. It's a very nice store, to be sure, but we went through there one time after the grand opening, and their prices and selection are, well, just not even realistic for us. They cater to an entirely different income bracket (waaay above ours), which is fine, but aside from that first walk through, we haven't been back, and there's really no compelling reason for us to go back. I think we're the kind of riff-raff they'd like to filter out

I, for one, *like* malls like QSM and the old Crossroads, but I'm old guard . I remember when PSM was open-air, and find it ironic that the market momentum these days is back toward decentralized, open-air shops like those in Norman or even the Outlet Malls. We went to PSM a few times over December and it was seemingly always packed to the gills.

Don't know how or if QSM strategizes for the future, but with stores like Penney's very much in the air, Macy's out, Von Maur underperforming and apparently others on the way out, the future looks very cloudy.

[Plutonic Panda]

Do we know Von Maur is under-performing? Just because a couple say they they have heard that or whatever doesn't make it true. I would like to know if they really are. Don't they have to release sales numbers because they got incentives?

[bchris02]

Problem is the other stores aren't any better. You've had several national retailers pull out of the mall completely because their sales were so low, especially compared to their other stores at Penn.

To be fair, most of the stores that have pulled out are stores that have scaled way back nationally. Abercrombie & Fitch for instance. They aren't as popular as they once were and have scaled back their presence significantly everywhere. Are you aware of any unique-to-market retailers that have pulled out of QSM due to low sales? I can't think of any off the top of my head. Every retailer that has pulled out have locations elsewhere in the metro, either at Penn Square or at the Outlet Shoppes.

Even Penn's stores aren't that great. OKC's retail market just sucks in general. Not in terms of sales, but of how nice the stores are compared to L.A. and Dallas. Now that may be the case in other cities the size of OKC because when I go to other cities I don't go into their shopping malls or department stores unless I've lived there and the only cities I've lived in are Oklahoma City, Dallas, and Los Angeles.

I agree with this. OKC's retail market is below other markets its size. Take Jacksonville FL for instance. St. John's Town Center is far above anything in OKC, yet Jacksonville's metro population and demographics are very similar to OKC.

St Johns Town Center? - A Shopping Center In Jacksonville, FL 32246-7429 - A Simon Property

[Patrick]

Do we know Von Maur is under-performing? Just because a couple say they they have heard that or whatever doesn't make it true. I would like to know if they really are. Don't they have to release sales numbers because they got incentives?

You'd have to get the numbers from the city or mall management. Remember, the city gave them over $2 million in incentives to locate there. Mall management doesn't usually release those, although mall management at PSM did share those numbers with me only because I was heavily involved in the Belle Isle HOA and had a connection with them there. All I'm going off of is what various managers that work there have told me. Take that for what it's worth though.

[Patrick]

To be fair, most of the stores that have pulled out are stores that have scaled way back nationally. Abercrombie & Fitch for instance. They aren't as popular as they once were and have scaled back their presence significantly everywhere. Are you aware of any unique-to-market retailers that have pulled out of QSM due to low sales? I can't think of any off the top of my head. Every retailer that has pulled out have locations elsewhere in the metro, either at Penn Square or at the Outlet Shoppes.



I agree with this. OKC's retail market is below other markets its size. Take Jacksonville FL for instance. St. John's Town Center is far above anything in OKC, yet Jacksonville's metro population and demographics are very similar to OKC.

St Johns Town Center? - A Shopping Center In Jacksonville, FL 32246-7429 - A Simon Property

Yeah, most of the retailers that have left have done so to cut back to 1 metro location. But, they cut their QSM location because it was underperforming in comparison to their PSM location.

[jdcf]

I like Von Maur. The sale prices are wonderful and the sales persons are very helpful and very courteous. It is a nice shopping environment. The free gift wrap is a perk, and I purchase out of town gifts there as the store will mail them without charge. Hope the store can thrive, especially with the current Okla economy.

[Plutonic Panda]

You'd have to get the numbers from the city or mall management. Remember, the city gave them over $2 million in incentives to locate there. Mall management doesn't usually release those, although mall management at PSM did share those numbers with me only because I was heavily involved in the Belle Isle HOA and had a connection with them there. All I'm going off of is what various managers that work there have told me. Take that for what it's worth though.

So they have told you that VM isn't doing that well? Did they say how dire it was?

[Patrick]

So they have told you that VM isn't doing that well? Did they say how dire it was?

My friend, who is a manager over the men's department just told me that during the holidays business there was dead and that they'd missed all of their sales goals. He said some of that was likely due to a downturn in the local economy. But overall that store has missed all sales projections. Said that had it not been for the incentives, that store would be bleeding cash.

[Patrick]

By the way, Von Maur is locked into a 10 year lease, so they're not going anywhere unless the corporation folds.

In contrast, Macy's wasn't on a lease as they own the property. Dillard's also owns their property there, which is one of the reasons that GGP has little control over whether they remodel or not. If GGP owned the property they could force them to remodel every so often, like they do with the rest of their tenants. In contrast, Simon owns the anchor spaces at PSM. GGP also owns the Von Maur anchor, which they acquired from Sears.

[bchris02]

By the way, Von Maur is locked into a 10 year lease, so they're not going anywhere unless the corporation folds.

In contrast, Macy's wasn't on a lease as they own the property. Dillard's also owns their property there, which is one of the reasons that GGP has little control over whether they remodel or not. If GGP owned the property they could force them to remodel every so often, like they do with the rest of their tenants. In contrast, Simon owns the anchor spaces at PSM. GGP also owns the Von Maur anchor, which they acquired from Sears.

Being that Macy's and Dillard's own their properties, does that mean their sales don't factor into the mall's sales per square foot? If so, that could be a significant reason QSM's sales per square foot are so much lower than Penn.

Good to hear about Von Maur's 10-year lease. Hopefully by 2024, QSM will have re-invented itself, the local economy will be stronger, and the store will be more successful than it is now.

Is there anything GGP could do to encourage Dillard's to remodel, even though they don't own the location? Do you think it would be a worthwhile investment?

[Patrick]

Being that Macy's and Dillard's own their properties, does that mean their sales don't factor into the mall's sales per square foot? If so, that could be a significant reason QSM's sales per square foot are so much lower than Penn.

Good to hear about Von Maur's 10-year lease. Hopefully by 2024, QSM will have re-invented itself, the local economy will be stronger, and the store will be more successful than it is now.

Is there anything GGP could do to encourage Dillard's to remodel, even though they don't own the location? Do you think it would be a worthwhile investment?

Their sales still factor into the sales per square foot because they're under an operating agreement with the mall. I also wouldn't be surprised if they're under some sort of a land lease agreement, even though they own the structures.

Nothing really GGP can do about a remodel, other than maybe offer incentives, which will improve conditions for the other tenants in the mall based on the success of the anchor tenant. I personally feel that any investment made into a retail structure is worthwhile. Seems to me that customers will spend more money if they're shopping in what they feel is a pleasant, nice, upscale environment. I mean, I tend to flock to newer stores with nicer environments and better selection. But, at a corporate level, all they care about is sales, when making those decisions. Corprorate retailers tend to invest more when they feel that sales will improve or when they're forced to by competition (thus the reason that Homeland doesn't improve their 18th and Classen location....no competition, so why invest the money? And the reason why 7-11 is finally upping their game with OnCue on their heals).

[traxx]

They're not going to upgrade the Dillard's because the sales just aren't there. Poor return on the investment.

Well one follows the other, does it not? If you don't invest because the sales aren't there, then the sales won't be there because you didn't invest. That's basic business. PSM is the mall it is because of investment and buy in. It wasn't always the mall you see today. At one point its big tenants were places like Harry Bear's and Montgomery Wards. If Macy's and Dillard's retail spaces looked like they do at PSM, then their sales would pick up at QSM. But when Macy's took over Foley's they made no upgrades to that space. That space has changed very little since it was John A. Brown's back in the early '80s. You have to make it a pleasant experience for the shopper to want to come there and spend money.

Whoever it was that said earlier in this thread that QSM should go upscale and chase Gaillardia and Edmond clientele has the right idea. That's the key to their long term success. Not going for cheaper retailers. If they do that, then they'll have the same fate as Crossroads.

[OkiePoke]

Well one follows the other, does it not? If you don't invest because the sales aren't there, then the sales won't be there because you didn't invest. That's basic business. PSM is the mall it is because of investment and buy in. It wasn't always the mall you see today. At one point its big tenants were places like Harry Bear's and Montgomery Wards. If Macy's and Dillard's retail spaces looked like they do at PSM, then their sales would pick up at QSM. But when Macy's took over Foley's they made no upgrades to that space. That space has changed very little since it was John A. Brown's back in the early '80s. You have to make it a pleasant experience for the shopper to want to come there and spend money.

Whoever it was that said earlier in this thread that QSM should go upscale and chase Gaillardia and Edmond clientele has the right idea. That's the key to their long term success. Not going for cheaper retailers. If they do that, then they'll have the same fate as Crossroads.

Where else in the city can you participate in a ping pong tournament in a mall? Or visit rival model train stores?

[bchris02]

Anybody know how Von Maur is doing? Have they reported their sales numbers?

I have heard a rumor that they are doing so poorly they are looking at subleasing in order to exit the market without breaking their 10-year contract. Not sure if there is any truth to this but its bad news if it is, both for the store, and it sends a bad perception about OKC's ability to support higher-end retail.

Hopefully its not true though.

[Eric]

Anybody know how Von Maur is doing? Have they reported their sales numbers?

I have heard a rumor that they are doing so poorly they are looking at subleasing in order to exit the market without breaking their 10-year contract. Not sure if there is any truth to this but its bad news if it is, both for the store, and it sends a bad perception about OKC's ability to support higher-end retail.

Hopefully its not true though.

Is Von Maur really upscale? No better than a Dillards or Macy's from what I can tell. Truth be told I've never been in this particular Von Maur, but have been to one in Wichita. I was unimpressed at best. I've heard comparisons to Nordstroms and let me tell you it is no Nordstroms.

[Urbanized]

I've been a couple of times, and it feels like it's been there since the 80s. Completely dated conceptually and from an execution standpoint. I mentioned this on this forum when someone posted photos and was shouted down for my trouble.

I think that enclosed malls and department stores of this type are anachronisms at this point, with rare exceptions (PSM). Much more interested in the types of places that will be locating at Gilmcher and Chisholm Creek, and I think their success/failure rate will be a much better indicator of OKC's retail climate than a mauve-and-mirror department store.

[Spartan]

I've been a couple of times, and it feels like it's been there since the 80s. Completely dated conceptually and from an execution standpoint. I mentioned this on this forum when someone posted photos and was shouted down for my trouble.

I think that enclosed malls and department stores of this type are anachronisms at this point, with rare exceptions (PSM). Much more interested in the types of places that will be locating at Gilmcher and Chisholm Creek, and I think their success/failure rate will be a much better indicator of OKC's retail climate than a mauve-and-mirror department store.

Von Maur was absolutely essential for us to subsidize, or else we would be in dire need of mauve and mirror dept store shopping. Downtown retail and other initiatives that require subsidy can just wait.

[Mike_M]

Is Von Maur really upscale? No better than a Dillards or Macy's from what I can tell. Truth be told I've never been in this particular Von Maur, but have been to one in Wichita. I was unimpressed at best. I've heard comparisons to Nordstroms and let me tell you it is no Nordstroms.

I went to the Nordstrom at Mall of America a year ago and I can say, it is literally a splitting image of Von Maur in OKC. I'm sure the merchandise is a completely different story though.

[NWOKCGuy]

I went in Von Maur once and while I think the store itself was nice I was less than impressed by the merchandise.

[Dustin]

I went in Von Maur once and while I think the store itself was nice I was less than impressed by the merchandise.

I had the opposite impression. The store is very dated and the merch is nicer and more high-end than anything else in the mall.

I went to a Nordstroms in LA a couple of years ago and the shoe dept of both stores is almost identical. Von Maur might not have an as big selection, but its close.

[brianinok]

Nordstrom actually started as a shoe store. They continue to have a better shoe department than any other department store out there. As for clothes they carry everything from the middle of the road Dillard's up to a select assortment of the Neiman Marcus designer brands, and everything in between. That's what makes them so great.

Von Maur carries merchandise similar to Dillard's and slightly above it, but no designer brands. They do have brands that neither Dillard's nor Macy's (even the ones at Penn Square) have, such as Brooks Brothers. I am talking about the men's department; I am sure it's a similar story in the ladies' department. I just wish Von Maur carried more smalls so they fit me. But the store has tailors on staff, and will alter things for free, virtually always having them ready the next day. Even Nordstrom can't provide that service.

And if someone is so incredibly worried about the decor of a department store (and Von Maur doesn't make the cut) rather than the merchandise I assume you don't shop in any Oklahoma department stores. Well, the Dillard's at Penn Square might be fine, but after that and Von Maur they go downhill fast. Von Maur is great because it's new, clean, well-lit, fresh carpet, has seating spaces, and you can actually walk between racks of clothing (you often can't at Dillard's).