BOK Park Plaza

[Pete]

is the 27th floor done yet?

Almost.

[_Kyle]

It looks like they are finishing it up on this cam.

[Pete]

I believe there is a mechanical floor then the rest of the crown.

[_Kyle]

Is it part of the crown?

[Pete]

Here is what is left, equivalent to 3 of the office floors but it will be all mechanical and slightly set-back at the top.

[HangryHippo]

It's a beautiful building (IMO) but why the hell they needed to surround it with so much parking, I'll never understand.

[dankrutka]

It's a beautiful building (IMO) but why the hell they needed to surround it with so much parking, I'll never understand.

Devon/BOK prioritized parking right next to the building over a vibrant neighborhood with this building. If they'd taken a more holistic perspective, they might have valued why empolyees might want to work (and even live) in an area with restaurants, shops, and other amenities. Tp me, the vibrancy of core neighborhoods is what defines great cities for the people who live there.

[Pete]

Interestingly, the new Arts District garage right across the street has been running at only 50% occupancy.

[dankrutka]

Interestingly, the new Arts District garage right across the street has been running at only 50% occupancy.

I fear that the streetcar is going to fail if businesses and citizens keep building parking garages. There will be barely any incentive for citizens to take the streetcar if there's a parking garage next to everywhere you want to go. Am I off base?

[HangryHippo]

I fear that the streetcar is going to fail if businesses and citizens keep building parking garages. There will be barely any incentive for citizens to take the streetcar if there's a parking garage next to everywhere you want to go. Am I off base?

I've wondered the same thing. It's too bad the streetcar won't run closer to this BOK project, as they ended up building a great little park and ride with all the garages. lol

[SOONER8693]

I fear that the streetcar is going to fail if businesses and citizens keep building parking garages. There will be barely any incentive for citizens to take the streetcar if there's a parking garage next to everywhere you want to go. Am I off base?

You very well could be correct on the success of the streetcar. However, I believe there will be an X amount of time, once it is operating, that people will use and ride the streetcars simply because of the novelty of them. Maybe because of that "novelty" riding, others will see that they can be used for convenient transport in the downtown and surrounding areas. JMO

[KayneMo]

I've wondered the same thing. It's too bad the streetcar won't run closer to this BOK project, as they ended up building a great little park and ride with all the garages. lol

The streetcar will run right next this tower on Hudson and on Sheridan.

[HangryHippo]

The streetcar will run right next this tower on Hudson and on Sheridan.

Yep, you're right. My bad, I'm not sure what I thought I was looking at. Anyway, the park and ride is perfect then. lol

[jn1780]

I fear that the streetcar is going to fail if businesses and citizens keep building parking garages. There will be barely any incentive for citizens to take the streetcar if there's a parking garage next to everywhere you want to go. Am I off base?

That's a chicken or the egg argument. Business are going to keep building parking garages until they see a shift in their employees behavior. But really best cast short term, is that you have some people who live down town utilize it, visitors using it, or employees leaving their cars in their employers garage for an extra hour or two while they go to dinner or events across downtown.

Having a streetcar will certainly help employers with recruiting.

[dankrutka]

Maybe because of that "novelty" riding, others will see that they can be used for convenient transport in the downtown and surrounding areas. JMO

The streetcar will fail if it is to rely on novelty instead of habits.

That's a chicken or the egg argument. Business are going to keep building parking garages until they see a shift in their employees behavior. But really best cast short term, is that you have some people who live down town utilize it, visitors using it, or employees leaving their cars in their employers garage for an extra hour or two while they go to dinner or events across downtown.

Having a streetcar will certainly help employers with recruiting.

Employees will not change their habits if employers are subsidizing their parking. I wish more downtown employers would say to their employees, you can have a parking spot or $1,000 a year (I am not sure of the actual cost of a parking spot so maybe this number could be higher). Instead, employers just build a garage and offer everyone parking. Car culture relies on the government and employers subsidizing all their costs (free or cheap highways and parking) instead of having to make free market economic decisions. In a real free market, dense housing and public transit becomes far more viable.

Unfortunately, I don't see how or why the streetcar will succeed. Of course, I really hope I am wrong.

[AP]

Unfortunately, I don't see how or why the streetcar will succeed. Of course, I really hope I am wrong.

I've come to this conclusion as well. I hope it does, but I just don't see how it will.

[Ross MacLochness]

I've come to this conclusion as well. I hope it does, but I just don't see how it will.

Why do you think the streetcar will fail? Not trying to pick a fight, I'm just curious to hear all opinions.

[Pete]

Remember, the streetcar is paid for.

The only on-going costs will be related to operation which will be partially offset by ridership.

Very hard to imagine how it will fail, no matter how slow the start.

[dankrutka]

Very hard to imagine how it will fail, no matter how slow the start.

I guess I meant fail in the sense that it will have low ridership, which will mean there is not an impetus for expansion.

[Pete]

^

Even if there is low ridership several developers have cited the streetcar as motivation to build on or near the line.

That is a huge return to OKC and will no doubt prompt further expansion, regardless of initial ridership.

I remember when L.A. opened it's first subway line and everyone lamented the low ridership and lack of network. Now, the thing is so packed you can barely ride it at peak times.

You have to start somewhere and let the system grow. This was never meant to be the end game, just the beginning.

[hoya]

Businesses will keep building garages until their employees and customers have a different option. The streetcar is the first real effort we've made to provide those people with another option. We're not going to build so many parking garages in the next 5 years to make the streetcar a failure. Midtown and Automobile Alley will probably be the biggest beneficiaries of the streetcar system. It will let people get from their downtown garages or the Bass Pro lot and travel all around the downtown area.

Slowly, some people will be able to make the adjustment so they can live or work downtown without using a car. Businesses will operate successfully without having easy parking nearby. But that's a cultural shift that will take some time to accomplish. You've got to have enough density in the first place to make it easy. The streetcar will help with that.

[Timshel]

Remember, the streetcar is paid for.

This is so important and something I know I fail to consider on occasion. It's also why I have reservations regarding moving from MAPS's original intent with MAPS 4 by focusing on infrastructure instead of primarily building visible, city-defining civic projects that either would never happen or may struggle mightily if saddled with a significant amount of debt. I just got done reading David Holt's "Big League City" which discussed the role that the City of Seattle's debt on Key Arena played in them losing the Sonics and failing to build a new arena, which has had me thinking about this important part of MAPS recently.

[AP]

Yeah, I mostly meant that ridership will be extremely low and that it will just be a novelty thing. I can't really imagine anyone using it for a real, frequent purpose. People may use it once a year randomly. That doesn;t really create the ridership needed to be considered successful, I would think.

[shawnw]

The sooner it is expanded into important corridors the more likely it will get and stay relevant to non-novelty enthusiasts...

[Bullbear]

Yeah, I mostly meant that ridership will be extremely low and that it will just be a novelty thing. I can't really imagine anyone using it for a real, frequent purpose. People may use it once a year randomly. That doesn;t really create the ridership needed to be considered successful, I would think.

I disagree. I think initially ridership will be low and will increase over time. that is generally how it works out for most new transit. I think many people will be surprised.