Streetcar

[adaniel]

Feel free to come to one of our MTP meetings and check our pulse. We're not worried about it not happening. What we are concerned about is that some "key" people may not understand the route and the balance between economic development and immediate ridership numbers. As evidenced in some of the audio recordings, there is some "pettiness" with some people that has to be expunged or resolved.

Also, to use Steve's quote about City Staff on OKC Central, we are concerned with "Daze and Confuse" strategies by some City Staff and consultants. The streetcar is a "strange animal" to them and potentially a "safe" strategy for some is to stall and buy time. Be wary of calls for more route/economic development studies.

There is indeed a time clock in which there may be a moment where we could be vulnerable as a whole. We are not there yet. We will let the public know if time starts running out.

With the acqusition of Santa-Fe on course and discussions regarding proceeding with the 3rd party transit consultant RFP, we are so far on schedule.

Also regarding what "towed" MAPS- it was scientifically verified that the streetcar helped "tip" the scales along with sidewalks, trails, and wellness centers. Undoubtedly, probably without the streetcar/transit, MAPS would have been a much tighter race. And no, while we are progressive, the supporters very well may have campaigned against it otherwise. I can vouch for several key people involved in the campaign.

The streetcar project may not be fully understood by everyone, but it's value to MAPS cannot be underestimated.

Thanks for presenting the real story, Urban Pioneer.

My knowledge on this is pretty limited. But it seems there is a lot of paranoia about this not even getting built, and I'm afraid that these fears, some legit but others unfounded, will cause people to accept something far inferior just "to get it done." Bravo to you and others who are making sure everything is followed through as promised.

[kevinpate]

...
The streetcar project may not be fully understood by everyone, but it's value to MAPS cannot be underestimated.

I don't disagree, but it also seems to be obvious some influential people do disagree. I can't really reconcile a presentation of viability/value type concerns by stakeholders and the interviewees not including anyone from your group while folks from the park and cc groups were included.

I hope you are 100% correct there is no reason to worry and I am merely a bit of a nervous nelly. It doesn't feel that way watching from the bleachers though. But I'll gladly wear a Nervous Elly 2012 Tour shirt if that turns out to be warranted.

[Skyline]

Here is a newsok quote from Mr. Mark Beffort.

“It's our time,” he said, but city and business leaders should be looking not just at the next 15 years but the 15 years beyond that.

He compared Oklahoma City to Austin, Texas, and Charlotte, N.C., which 30 years ago took steps Oklahoma City is only starting.

They nursed local business. Oklahoma City has two Fortune 500 companies in Devon Energy and Chesapeake Energy, he said; Austin has two in Dell Computer and Whole Foods, and Charlotte has seven, anchored by Bank of America — and all are homegrown and committed to each city.

They nursed entertainment. Beffort put Bricktown, the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Arts Festival up against Austin's South by Southwest music festival and Charlotte's arts and NASCAR.

They enhanced public transportation with light rail systems. In Oklahoma City, he said, “We should do it, and we should do more than we're thinking about doing.”

They encouraged downtown housing. Oklahoma City's downtown population of about 5,900 pales in comparison to Austin's and Charlotte's, but living downtown is a relatively renewed concept here, he said.

Read more: http://newsok.com/downtown-oklahoma-...#ixzz1mHUpzvHx

I found this very encouraging as I think he would pass as an influential person and he is saying we should do more.

[Just the facts]

One of the problems in OKC is that our local business community is dominated by an industry that sees mass transit as a threat to their very existance.

[CaptDave]

One of the problems in OKC is that our local business community is dominated by an industry that sees mass transit as a threat to their very existance.

I have been thinking this is the obvious answer for quite a while now. For that reason I threw out the idea of having natural gas powered turbines generate the power for the streetcar and future light rail. etc. Excess power could be sold back to the grid. That is as close as I can get to not "offending" our otherwise very supportive energy companies AND getting the rail based transit I think OKC needs.

[Oil Capital]

One of the problems in OKC is that our local business community is dominated by an industry that sees mass transit as a threat to their very existance.

Yeah, right.

[Urban Pioneer]

I'm with Oil Capital on this one. We have had pretty much nothing but support for transit from the energy sector.

If your talking about cars versus transit, that battle was lost during the Eisenhower Administration.

The reality at this point is that irregardless of more cars or not in tge US, energy consumption will continue onward.

Transit offers people alternative transport to the car, but is unlikely to meaningfully, negatively affect the energy industry.

They have supported the campaign from a "Quality of Life" perspective.

[Urban Pioneer]

Thanks for presenting the real story, Urban Pioneer.

My knowledge on this is pretty limited. But it seems there is a lot of paranoia about this not even getting built, and I'm afraid that these fears, some legit but others unfounded, will cause people to accept something far inferior just "to get it done." Bravo to you and others who are making sure everything is followed through as promised.

Thanks! We appreciate the support!

[Just the facts]

I'm with Oil Capital on this one. We have had pretty much nothing but support for transit from the energy sector.

If your talking about cars versus transit, that battle was lost during the Eisenhower Administration.

The reality at this point is that irregardless of more cars or not in tge US, energy consumption will continue onward.

Transit offers people alternative transport to the car, but is unlikely to meaningfully, negatively affect the energy industry.

They have supported the campaign from a "Quality of Life" perspective.

I hope you are right but I can't help but remember that basis for the creation of the automobile, gasoline, and tire industries in the US.

[Oil Capital]

I hope you are right but I can't help but remember that basis for the creation of the automobile, gasoline, and tire industries in the US.

You must be referring to JD Rockefeller's invention of the automobile, followed by his forcing poor widows and children to drive them hither and yon, all in an evil conspiracy to get people to buy his gasoline...

[CaptDave]

I have been thinking this is the obvious answer for quite a while now. For that reason I threw out the idea of having natural gas powered turbines generate the power for the streetcar and future light rail. etc. Excess power could be sold back to the grid. That is as close as I can get to not "offending" our otherwise very supportive energy companies AND getting the rail based transit I think OKC needs.

After engaging my brain and re-reading this I still like the idea of using NG powered turbine to generate power for transit, but it is less "obvious" that any of the energy companies would see transit in OKC as a threat. After all, even if transit ridership is at maximum capacity, it is probably less than 3-5% of commuters in cities like OKC. The vast majority will still drive to work. So DUH to my last post. (Although I would certainly be one of that 3-5% if it were possible.)

[Just the facts]

You must be referring to JD Rockefeller's invention of the automobile, followed by his forcing poor widows and children to drive them hither and yon, all in an evil conspiracy to get people to buy his gasoline...

You are getting warmer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_City_Lines

[Oil Capital]

You are getting warmer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_City_Lines

Yes, I was certain that is what you were referencing. No doubt you are among the conspiracy theorists wo believe that National City Lines was created for the purpose of buying all of the streetcars and putting them out of business in order to protect the auto, gasoline and tire industries. And I imagine you think there is evidence of such conspiracy and intent and even that such was proved in court.

Sadly for your conspiracy theory, the charge was merely "conspiring To acquire control and monopolize certain transportation companies (street car lines)" and "conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products" to the acquired transit companies.

They were convicted on the first charge, acquitted on the second. Note what is missin: any charge or evidence of conspiracy to buy the companies for the purpose of eliminating them.

Maybe you should change your name to "Just Comspiracy Theories". ;-)

[Urban Pioneer]

Irregardless of who is right, wrong, or convicted historically, what is an atrocity today is how difficult it is to obtain funding for building transit infrastructure. By orienting nearly all of our focus on car infrastructure, we have forgotten a great many people in the process who need a dependable alternative to rubber tire. The disabled, the elderly, and the challenged are completely held hostage to the uncertainty of their living situation based on bus lines and para-transit. Not to mention that car culture has left an indelible imprint sociologically by physically separating people from one another.

Transit does not work everywhere. In today's pervasive suburban city development, that is undeniable. But to make it so hard for a city to develop it in areas where it can work to give these people an stable alternative is criminal. The rest of us who relish interacting with people, living by choice without a car/parking issues, or easing our commute are fortunate when transit is available to us in the urban environments/corridors where it can work. It is the sustained, ever complicating government bureaucracy surrounding design/funding that I find most frustrating and atrocious. And those deep roots do indeed go back to that era and have never been adequately resolved.

[Just the facts]

It isn't a conspiracy theory - it is historical fact. As UP pointed out, we have been living with the consequences every since. Of course, I undestand your reluctance to except that give your name is Oil Capital and all. My guess is you have a vested interest in oil.

[Oil Capital]

It isn't a conspiracy theory - it is historical fact. As UP pointed out, we have been living with the consequences every since. Of course, I undestand your reluctance to except that give your name is Oil Capital and all. My guess is you have a vested interest in oil.

What, exactly, is historical fact? (BTW, I have zero vested interest in oil; why am I not surprised that you turn promptly to personal attack?)

[Just the facts]

Historical fact is that GM, Standard Oil, Phillips, and Firestone used companies called National City Lines and Pacific City Lines to buy and close streetcar systems around the country. Of couse, the historical record also tell us that the new bus systems were rarely used after the conversion which means the millions of people who rode the streetcars started using something else - maybe even the automobile.

as for personal attacks...

Maybe you should change your name to "Just Comspiracy Theories". ;-)

and...

You must be referring to JD Rockefeller's invention of the automobile

What exactly were you implying with that last comment?

[Oil Capital]

Historical fact is that GM, Standard Oil, Phillips, and Firestone used companies called National City Lines and Pacific City Lines to buy and close streetcar systems around the country. Of couse, the historical record also tell us that the new bus systems were rarely used after the conversion which means the millions of people who rode the streetcars started using something else - maybe even the automobile.

The problem with the theory (as with most conspiracy theories) is that the story ends up consuming itself. Most tellings of the story tell us that the grand conspiracy was all for the sake of selling GM buses (a theory which I find actually might make some sense, since GM apparently had a struggling bus subsidiary at about that time). But that story doesn't fit in with the desire to blame GM for killing mass transit, so we move on to the grand theory is that they substituted buses knowing that people would hate buses and run out and buy automobiles instead. (Never mind about that struggling bus subsidiary GM was trying to turn profitable.)

[Larry OKC]

Oh no... I smell a derail.

Pun intended? (Given the thread) LOL

[warreng88]

Oklahoma City seeks federal money for E.K. Gaylord Boulevard improvements
Oklahoma City has applied for a federal grant to improve E.K. Gaylord Boulevard as part of plans for the MAPS 3 transit hub at the Santa Fe Train Depot.
Published by MICHAEL KIMBALL | March 9, 2012
Oklahoma City is taking another crack at getting federal dollars to help fund improvements to E.K. Gaylord Boulevard.

The city council Tuesday ratified the city's application for $2.5 million in federal grant money that would help fund improvements to the street, which runs along the train tracks between downtown and Bricktown.

This is the second attempt by the city to secure federal money for the project after an application last fall for a larger grant was turned down. The city council is expected to approve another run at the bigger grant next week, which would help pay for the hub itself and free up more money for the MAPS 3 transit projects.

Jane Abraham, the city's community and government affairs manager, said the city was disappointed but undeterred when the first grant was turned down.

“We knew it was going to be competitive and difficult,” Abraham said.

Pedestrian-friendly plans

The improvements to E.K. Gaylord Boulevard would narrow the roadway and construct a new street surface, along with adding curbside parking and better lighting. The changes are designed to make it easier for pedestrians and bicyclists to use, while maintaining smooth traffic flow.

The federal money the city is asking for in the application approved Tuesday comes from the Federal Highway Administration and ties into the MAPS 3 intermodal transit hub project. The city has targeted the historic Santa Fe Train Depot as the centerpiece of the hub, and the council cleared city staff to begin negotiations with Bricktown Real Estate, which owns the building.

The grant requires matching funds, which in this case include a $1 million in-kind donation from the state Transportation Department in the form of a donated parking lot, $2 million from the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments and about $9.8 million in MAPS 3 money earmarked for the transit hub.

City finds out this spring

The city should find out this spring if the grant application is successful.

“We're trying to make it (the application) as competitive as we can,” Abraham said. “It's tough to get funding.”

Improvements to E.K. Gaylord were initially included in Project 180, the streets improvement project paid for by the Devon Energy Center's tax increment finance district. But cost overruns for portions of Project 180 prompted the city to drop some projects from the list, including E.K. Gaylord's improvements.

Abraham said the city is confident that the improvements to E.K. Gaylord will eventually get done even if the grant application is turned down again.

“There will be another opportunity somewhere else to apply for additional funding,” she said. “It's an ongoing process to secure additional money to do these things.”

Read more: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-seek...#ixzz1oaRdQtmA

[ljbab728]

Read more: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-seek...#ixzz1oaRdQtmA

Warren, you posted the entire article and then gave a link to read more. No offense but the newspaper reporters have in the past requested that we just give a link here with maybe a few excerpts posted instead of the whole article.

[Snowman]

Warren, you posted the entire article and then gave a link to read more. No offense but the newspaper reporters have in the past requested that we just give a link here with maybe a few excerpts posted instead of the whole article.

... and the read more plus link gets auto added to anything copied from the page

[ljbab728]

... and the read more plus link gets auto added to anything copied from the page

I have been able to post many links that didn't have "read more".

[Snowman]

I have been able to post many links that didn't have "read more".

It seems the default behavior of their site, it can be removed or it may be if you have javascript or something else disabled.

[ljbab728]

It seems the default behavior of their site, it can be removed or it may be if you have javascript or something else disabled.

A case in point is my first post when I started this thread. I just did a copy and paste of the URL.

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=28961