First National Center

[Kerry]

If you used the whole 1 million sq feet of the FNC you might be able to get a convention hotel out of it. That is an interesting idea. In fact, that might be a darn good idea.

[Spartan]

Well the Populous study states a need for 570,000 sf for the convention center. I believe that includes 708 rooms.

So, I think you could fit a lot more than just a convention hotel inside the FNC. That could be the impetus for making it work as mixed-use, actually.

That is the only foreseeable way the city can step in with the FNC for the time being, pending a shocking sale of the Skirvin.

[Kerry]

I thought I read in one of the reports that the convention hotel alone would be about 1 million sq feet.

On edit - the latest Populus report shows the hotel at just under 600,000 sq feet. The convention center is 1,000,000 sq feet by itself. The two together are 1.6 million sq feet. This doesn't include the 874 recommended parking spaces either. http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/file-136-.pdf

[MikeOKC]

I just know the waste of space like The Great Banking Hall is one of the damndest shames in Oklahoma City.

[bluedogok]

If you used the whole 1 million sq feet of the FNC you might be able to get a convention hotel out of it. That is an interesting idea. In fact, that might be a darn good idea.

Magnolia Hotels has converted office buildings in Dallas, Denver and Houston into upscale hotels. Those were Magnolia Petroleum building (The Pegasus Tower) in Downtown Dallas, the Shell Oil Building in Downtown Houston (not far from Minute Maid Park and the convention Center) and the American National Bank Building in Downtown Denver. I have stayed at the ones in Houston and Denver and they were very well done and will stay at them again. I think FNC would make a great hotel/residential conversion with maybe some small high end office as well. I think it needs to be a true mixed-use tower to be successful.

I just know the waste of space like The Great Banking Hall is one of the damndest shames in Oklahoma City.

It would make a great hotel lobby.

[OSUMom]

They could put some high priced condos at the top like City Place did. Could bring in enough to help pay for the rest of the renovations. Or atleast get the ball rolling.

[bombermwc]

I'd be glad to see anything happen here, but why does it always have to be upscale? Why can only the rich live downtown? Where are the apartments for the average joe that happens to like downtown and doesn't consider something like the Regency as good.

[Spartan]

Bomber, do you think that the First National is feasibly going to become a building with nothing but 400 little 600 sf units that rent around $700-800/mo? I think it would be nice if it eventually ended up with at least 100 of those units, but that's not considered a good enough projected cash flow to obtain financing unfortunately.

No doubt it would work. Unfortunately, I don't see banks going for it. Ultimately I would like to see some economic diversity in the building itself. With million-dollar condos on top, that guarantees long-term upkeep of the property at least. With such a huge building, I think you have a real opportunity to have a mix of income ranges benefiting each other.

I just don't know if the expensive job of rehabilitating that building would be covered by lower-end apartments. You get what you pay for...

[Kerry]

I'd be glad to see anything happen here, but why does it always have to be upscale? Why can only the rich live downtown? Where are the apartments for the average joe that happens to like downtown and doesn't consider something like the Regency as good.

Define rich, define affordable, and what is wrong with Regency and Park Harvey? To make it easier, how much should a downtown apartment cost and how big should it be?

[Rover]

Why do these discussions invariably turn into class vs. class? The truth is that downtown needs to somewhat reflect a real society which exists here...a mix of socioeconomic population and services that appeal to all, including housing at all levels in roughly representative proportions. A tower can provide that. In many cities that is exactly what the residential/mixed use towers provide. Generally, the higher the floor the higher the cost, whether purchased or leased. Generally condo up high and rental lower with services and retail at the base. Exclusive floors may have separate entrances/elevators for privacy. All this could be done at First National. Retail & food at bottom, professional services next, boutique/business class hotel for 3 or 4 floors, rental units above that and condo at top levels. Very doable. Some developer needs to get a little imaginative. This could be done in stages.

[Kerry]

I assume in all these discussions of mixed socio-economic buildings you are applying some minimum standard, or should there be a section 8 unit on every floor?

[Rover]

I assume in all these discussions of mixed socio-economic buildings you are applying some minimum standard, or should there be a section 8 unit on every floor?

I doubt you are asking a serious question. Not mix floor by floor, but in building. Rental of $1,000-$1500 units up to condos for $1 million plus works if the corresponding amenities are there. A serious study on adaptive reuse of the building would reveal a mix that makes economic sense. I doubt section 8 would even be practical in a cash flow sense anyway, and certainly wouldn't work in a marketing sense. Total diversity is the neighborhoods responsibility. Mixed use doesn't include EVERYTHING.

[Kerry]

I don't care if the Sultant of Oman bought it and turned into one giant home, if the building can be remodeled into residential I am for whatever plan does that (short of section 8 housing). If each unit cost $2 million then so be it. BTW - section 8 housing covers the price difference between what the person can afford to pay and the market rent. Cash flow would have nothing to do with it - it isn't rent control.

[Spartan]

Oy.....

[Rover]

I don't care if the Sultant of Oman bought it and turned into one giant home, if the building can be remodeled into residential I am for whatever plan does that (short of section 8 housing). If each unit cost $2 million then so be it. BTW - section 8 housing covers the price difference between what the person can afford to pay and the market rent. Cash flow would have nothing to do with it - it isn't rent control.

Whatever. For awhile I thought this thread was in danger of becoming a serious discussion of what could be seriously done with the First National Center. Guess there isn't a real chance of that though.

[Kerry]

Whatever. For awhile I thought this thread was in danger of becoming a serious discussion of what could be seriously done with the First National Center. Guess there isn't a real chance of that though.

That train left the station with post #235.

[Rover]

That train left the station with post #235.

Post 235 offered up a suggestion of what would fit and work in a tower with the makeup of the center. It is a mix that works elsewhere and could be done in stages to make investment in it easier and to start creating cash flow to encourage the investment and make it viable. On here, whenever anyone doesn't have a reasonable rebuttal or another idea they tend to take the suggestions and make extreme statements about them in an attempt to discredit all but their own opinion. In 235 I never suggested section 8 or low income housing. What I suggested is that affordable rental and expensive condo can co-exist in such a vertical tower where access and exclusivity can both be achieved, making the project more appealing to an investor. And, by widening the net one might find there are more fish.

[Kerry]

Rover - can you provide an example? I have looked into living in several high-rise buildings and never found a wide price range, except for the penthouses. What I found usually happens is that the price stay pretty consistent throughout the building with larger condos on the lower floors and smaller condos higher up. You trade size for view but the price stays about the same. When you get to the top 2 or 3 floors then people start buying size and view and the price escalates.

I think to do what you are describing would take a 1000’ plus building.

[Rover]

Rover - can you provide an example? I have looked into living in several high-rise buildings and never found a wide price range, except for the penthouses. What I found usually happens is that the price stay pretty consistent throughout the building with larger condos on the lower floors and smaller condos higher up. You trade size for view but the price stays about the same. When you get to the top 2 or 3 floors then people start buying size and view and the price escalates.

I think to do what you are describing would take a 1000’ plus building.

You didn't look too far. They don't exist in Birmingham or Gotebo. Try looking in places like Vancouver, Seattle, Chicago and other urban cities. Mixed condo and rental is not that unusual. Heck, you might even look at Founders tower here. I just finished working two towers in Redmond with expensive condos, for rent apartments and retail and prefessional at bottom with a common plaza between the towers. Works pretty well.

[ZYX2]

Why do these discussions invariably turn into class vs. class? The truth is that downtown needs to somewhat reflect a real society which exists here...a mix of socioeconomic population and services that appeal to all, including housing at all levels in roughly representative proportions. A tower can provide that. In many cities that is exactly what the residential/mixed use towers provide. Generally, the higher the floor the higher the cost, whether purchased or leased. Generally condo up high and rental lower with services and retail at the base. Exclusive floors may have separate entrances/elevators for privacy. All this could be done at First National. Retail & food at bottom, professional services next, boutique/business class hotel for 3 or 4 floors, rental units above that and condo at top levels. Very doable. Some developer needs to get a little imaginative. This could be done in stages.

I think this is a very good idea. The hotel and retail could be the first phase, and then the residential could begin after that. And you wouldn't gave to do all the residential at the same time. You could just do a it a couple floors at a time. If you gave the whole development a timeline of 5-7 years to be completed, I think this could work very well.

[Kerry]

Heck, you might even look at Founders tower here.

What are the price ranges at Founders Tower? I see you can rent there for about $1800 per month. That is equivalent to making payments on a $350,000 mortgage at 5% interest. Since banks now require 20% down for the most part then renting is like buying a $437,500 home.

When does the ...

mix of socioeconomic population and services that appeal to all, including housing at all levels in roughly representative proportions.

... come in to play at Founders Tower?

[HOT ROD]

The one problem I see with converting FNC into residential is the fire escape for the tower. Im not sure how it would work in a residential set-up, being so high.

I would like to see most/some of the tower become a high end hotel though - with a very nice restaurant on top in the original Beacon Club space and the lobby in the Great Banking Hall space (think Grand Hyatt). Maybe there could be penthouse/condo(s) on the upper floor(s) just below the club levels. The lower 15 floors of the building should remain office, and be restored to Class A with retain restored to the arcade and streetfront.

Mixed use Retail/Office/Hotel is the best fit I see for FNC and IS something I think the banks would go for.

[bluedogok]

The one problem I see with converting FNC into residential is the fire escape for the tower. Im not sure how it would work in a residential set-up, being so high.

I would like to see most/some of the tower become a high end hotel though - with a very nice restaurant on top in the original Beacon Club space and the lobby in the Great Banking Hall space (think Grand Hyatt). Maybe there could be penthouse/condo(s) on the upper floor(s) just below the club levels. The lower 15 floors of the building should remain office, and be restored to Class A with retain restored to the arcade and streetfront.

Mixed use Retail/Office/Hotel is the best fit I see for FNC and IS something I think the banks would go for.

Since there was an assembly occupancy for the Beacon Club I wouldn't think exiting is an issue. It isn't like you are dealing with a fire slide like in CityPlace. I would imagine that by now it is a sprinkled building which eases the exiting greatly over a non-sprinkled building.

[Rover]

What are the price ranges at Founders Tower? I see you can rent there for about $1800 per month. That is equivalent to making payments on a $350,000 mortgage at 5% interest. Since banks now require 20% down for the most part then renting is like buying a $437,500 home.

When does the ... ... come in to play at Founders Tower?

Again, if you are only considering cheap rents, go to the suburbs. You want something for nothing. No one is going to re-do the building for $500 per month rents. Let's get real. I have an apartment in New York City. I would love to be on Park Avenue near Central Park. However, we are in Chelsea. It is great, near the hipper areas, but it isn't in the higher rent area. If you want absolutely the best locations you will pay for it anywhere. You can dream, I guess, but it isn't realistic.

[OSUMom]

The bank lobby would be a great draw for high price condos in the FNC. It could be offered as a place they could hold parties, if not completely for free, for a huge discount. Like apartment buildings that have the clubhouse you can reserve for parties. One heck of a offering.