Bricktown Shakeup

[bchris02]

I'm not a club/bar person so I could be wrong, but isn't there also that bar in the alleyway behind Whiskey Chicks (Drinkz perhaps??), as well as Whiskey Chicks, Coyote Ugly and a few other places?

I am referring to dance clubs, in which there are much fewer now than there was last year at this time.

There are still plenty of bars open in Bricktown.

[Libbymin]

Most young professionals in the 18-34 crowd and even a lot of college students don't enjoy going to clubs (or at least the type of clubs we have in Bricktown) that much and prefer the type of bars and music venues that urbanized mentioned. The lack of them and especially the lack of a cluster of them (even though this is improving with the plaza, western, etc) is part of the reason our nightlife scene, especially Bricktown, gets gets a bad rap at times. We do need Bricktown to be filled with more of that type of venue similar to the way Brady and blue dome in Tulsa have developed. I, and literally everyone I know that lives in OKC or Oklahoma in general, would prefer that the majority of the trashy, douchie, graphic T type clubs close or be relocated as Bricktown becomes a true mixed use district; I don't know anyone that was disappointed that city walk closed. We might visit one of the decent Bricktown clubs once or twice a year but spend the majority of nights at bars. We don't need a full block of trashy clubs like we have on Sheridan right now (excluding one15). The street is completely dead 7 days a week during the day and 4-5 days a week at night. One or two of those clubs could definitely coexist with other venues in Bricktown, but shouldn't be on a primary street or the canal or in a cluster anywhere. Check out the police presence that they feel is necessary outside of Albee and Candy at around 1:30 every Friday and Saturday, it's very similar to the sketchiest part of lodo in Denver. I do think clubs help provide a variety of options and have a place in Bricktown similar to how a few coexist with the bars on 6th Street in Austin, but they shouldn't be the main focus of the district anymore. They are destroying the street life there night and day during the week. Any that remain should double as restaurants during the day.


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Up until recently, BT had sorely been missing decent bars/pubs to grab a drink and watch sports, outside of Tapwerks. The new Henry Hudson's is a step in the right direction. For those of you shaking your head at the thought of a boring, smoky Henry Hudson's in BT, it's actually non-smoking, the inside looks really nice, and they have lots of TV's. Will be great to go to for Thunder games. I'd like to see more of those kinds of places and more music venues.

[Pete]

It's interesting because it just occurred to me that clubs and bars have definitely hit a divergent path here in Los Angeles as well.

Most of my friends are 20- and 30-something professionals and are very out-going, yet they never go to clubs.

And the districts have really segregated, too. Hollywood / West Hollywood and downtown have tons of clubs but areas like the Westside, Santa Monica, and the South Bay have tons of bars and almost zero clubs.

Somewhere along the line this whole thing changed because when I was in my 20's I used to go to clubs a lot, both in OKC and Dallas. We went to bars too, but clubs were very much in the rotation. And when I first moved to L.A. in the 90's clubs seemed different then, too.

Maybe the emergence of really well thought-out bars is what has caused this great divide. All these fantastic sports bars with 9,000 beers on tap and great food... Or just really great little neighborhood places that offer a nice place to congregate... I think bars raising their game gave most professionals plenty of options and clubs were left mainly to a different type of person (most often described as douchey, Afflication-wearing, blow-my-entire-paycheck-on-bottle-service types).

As with most things, that is an over simplification but to the extent that it applies, I think it applies everywhere, not just OKC.

[catch22]

Maybe the emergence of really well thought-out bars is what has caused this great divide. All these fantastic sports bars with 9,000 beers on tap and great food... Or just really great little neighborhood places that offer a nice place to congregate... I think bars raising their game gave most professionals plenty of options and clubs were left mainly to a different type of person (most often described as douchey, Afflication-wearing, blow-my-entire-paycheck-on-bottle-service types).

Which is the Bricktown weekend crowd. Also a reason I don't like clubs. Testosterone fueled and roid-raging meatheads living it up on the town acting like complete assholes. That group has slowly started to migrate to the Plaza, which is disappointing. I want Bricktown to be successful with clubs just to keep the weekend douchebags in Bricktown away from the places I like to hang out!

[bchris02]

Charlotte has a very low number of actual dance clubs downtown considering its size, but the ones they do have are very high quality and have strict dress codes. That is the direction I would like to see OKC go with Bricktown clubs. It really surprises me there would be such a decline in the popularity of dance clubs given that EDM is the "in" thing right now.

And catch22 makes a good point. Those who wish for the closure of every dance club in Bricktown need to be careful what they wish for. The clubbing crowd is going to go somewhere and it may just be Saints and Empire if they don't have clubs to go to.

[Paseofreak]

They've been showing up in the Paseo in droves. Weekend and late night for a few years.

[Pete]

I think the Plaza is now being careful about the types of businesses that come in.

I know one bar was looking in the area and they were basically told, "We have plenty already, thanks". The property owners are pretty tight and well-organized.

Oak & Ore will be a nicer place and serve plenty of food; probably less of a bar than Empire, The Mule or Saints. And beyond that, I think most the major players in the Plaza want to be selective about any new alcohol-first establishments.

[warreng88]

Charlotte has a very low number of actual dance clubs downtown considering its size, but the ones they do have are very high quality and have strict dress codes. That is the direction I would like to see OKC go with Bricktown clubs. It really surprises me there would be such a decline in the popularity of dance clubs given that EDM is the "in" thing right now.

And catch22 makes a good point. Those who wish for the closure of every dance club in Bricktown need to be careful what they wish for. The clubbing crowd is going to go somewhere and it may just be Saints and Empire if they don't have clubs to go to.

I would think Baker's Street on Memorial would be the obvious choice, but what do I know...

[Urbanized]

Which is the Bricktown weekend crowd. Also a reason I don't like clubs. Testosterone fueled and roid-raging meatheads living it up on the town acting like complete assholes. That group has slowly started to migrate to the Plaza, which is disappointing. I want Bricktown to be successful with clubs just to keep the weekend douchebags in Bricktown away from the places I like to hang out!

Appreciate your concern for Bricktown. Thanks but no thanks.

[catch22]

Appreciate your concern for Bricktown. Thanks but no thanks.

I don't mean any disrespect, there is just no where else for these people to go. If Bricktown begins to fade too much (or a decent club substitute doesn't grow inversely proportional to the clubs in Bricktown shutting down) they'll just go elsewhere. And unfortunately, it's the Plaza district.

[kevinpate]

Perhaps the Plaza district needs to agree on a dress code? There are certain folk who will not give up their preferred attire, if only because they aren't necessarily sharp enough to make new choices.

Just don't require hipster beanies.

[Urbanized]

I disagree. As long as the Plaza District continues its commitment to quality establishments and a quality mix, it will continue to thrive. Much of what you are seeing is not so much people migrating from Bricktown to Plaza but instead the natural life cycle for any trendy place or business. Once the general public hears about it, they start showing up in droves and overwhelm the trend-setters, who more often than not move on to start the next trend, anyway. It already happened in places like McNellie's, and H&8th, for instance. But all is not lost; after McNellie's weathered the popularity and the flat brimmer storm it settled back down and became what it was supposed to be to begin with; a great neighborhood pub.

Like I said, as long as Plaza holds its ground and sticks with quality and a neighborhood focus, the douchebag crowd will never be comfortable there, and won't stick.

Regarding Bricktown, it has long been home to probably the widest-ranging variety of establishments and clientele, from upscale and business, to pockets of hip, to family-friendly, to live music, to lowest-common-denominator clubs. If it is trying to step up its game and move past the cheap beer, hoochie clubs, that can only be good for the district and for the rest of the downtown/urban center. Those places belong in an area that is away from other neighbors. Parking lots, strip malls, highway frontage, etc. There is still a place for them in the city I suppose, but putting them in the middle of many, many hundreds of millions in public and private investment is in a word stupid. Allowing them to remain after reams of evidence that they are harmful to the neighborhood mix and reputation would be reckless and dumb. Time to move on.

[bchris02]

The clubs in Bricktown are a deterrent from it developing into a livable, mixed-use neighborhood. OKC needs a club scene though for reasons pointed out here. Though many posting here may not like nightclubs, there are plenty who do and they aren't going to stay home just because all the clubs shut down. Dance clubs are a vital part of any city's nightlife.

[catch22]

I disagree. As long as the Plaza District continues its commitment to quality establishments and a quality mix, it will continue to thrive. Much of what you are seeing is not so much people migrating from Bricktown to Plaza but instead the natural life cycle for any trendy place or business. Once the general public hears about it, they start showing up in droves and overwhelm the trend-setters, who more often than not move on to start the next trend, anyway. It already happened in places like McNellie's, and H&8th, for instance. But all is not lost; after McNellie's weathered the popularity and the flat brimmer storm it settled back down and became what it was supposed to be to begin with; a great neighborhood pub.

Like I said, as long as Plaza holds its ground and sticks with quality and a neighborhood focus, the douchebag crowd will never be comfortable there, and won't stick.

Regarding Bricktown, it has long been home to probably the widest-ranging variety of establishments and clientele, from upscale and business, to pockets of hip, to family-friendly, to live music, to lowest-common-denominator clubs. If it is trying to step up its game and move past the cheap beer, hoochie clubs, that can only be good for the district and for the rest of the downtown/urban center. Those places belong in an area that is away from other neighbors. Parking lots, strip malls, highway frontage, etc. There is still a place for them in the city I suppose, but putting them in the middle of many, many hundreds of millions in public and private investment is in a word stupid. Allowing them to remain after reams of evidence that they are harmful to the neighborhood mix and reputation would be reckless and dumb. Time to move on.

I agree with you. And my post history on this exact subject (many of which are in this thread) supports my agreement with you. But, until another club district pops up, the Bricktown transformation into a positive and mature urban neighborhood is going to be at the expense of the neighborhoods and districts which are charming because they are underground. The Plaza is one of those right now, and perhaps you are right it will settle back out. I just hate seeing the lifted pickups, pumped up "cowboys", and otherwise undesirable qualities of some individuals who are migrating into the Plaza. (Like the street race I saw on 16th street between Indiana and Blackwelder (with pedestrians trying to cross the street and cyclists minding their own business riding down 16th). Saints now uses a beefed up bouncer-like rent-a-cop to check ID's at the door. Which is intimidating and takes away the charming neighborhood pub aspect of it, and reminds one of a club in Bricktown. The nerdy hipster dude who checked ID's was much friendlier, and not intimidating. He's there to check ID's, not be able to pick someone up with one arm and hurl them across the sidewalk.

[Urbanized]

It's not like I've never hung out in clubs. In the eighties and nineties I all but lived in them. I've also spent time in many of the clubs in Bricktown over the past decade+. The problem is that the ones down here over in recent memory have mostly been quick-money, low-rent places that appealed to a low-quality clientele. Also, as Pete mentions, club culture in general has changed greatly. These days it tends to be less glowstick rave and more MMA/Hip-Hop/aggro. That's fine (even appropriate) for places like that to exist, but not in a dense, complex neighborhood that is (still) the primary standard-bearer for your city's downtown renaissance.

They belong in a more insular environment, where if something bad happens it doesn't brand the rest of the area as "troubled." If a shooting happens in the parking lot of a club on Memorial Road, for instance, NODODY suggests Memorial Road is suddenly an unsafe place. Nobody stops shopping at Quail Springs or Lowe's, or eating at PF Changs, or hanging out at Top Golf (when it arrives). THAT is the difference.

[catch22]

It's not like I've never hung out in clubs. In the eighties and nineties I all but lived in them. I've also spent time in many of the clubs in Bricktown over the past decade+. The problem is that the ones down here over in recent memory have mostly been quick-money, low-rent places that appealed to a low-quality clientele. Also, as Pete mentions, club culture in general has changed greatly. These days it tends to be less glowstick rave and more MMA/Hip-Hop/aggro. That's fine (even appropriate) for places like that to exist, but not in a dense, complex neighborhood that is (still) the primary standard-bearer for your city's downtown renaissance.

They belong in a more insular environment, where if something bad happens it doesn't brand the rest of the area as "troubled." If a shooting happens in the parking lot of a club on Memorial Road, for instance, NODODY suggests Memorial Road is suddenly an unsafe place. Nobody stops shopping at Quail Springs or Lowe's, or eating at PF Changs, or hanging out at Top Golf (when it arrives). THAT is the difference.

I completely 100% agree with you.

[Pete]

^

Urbanized, since we are about the same age you will remember that the OKC clubs in the 70's, 80's and 90's were basically low-rent affairs as well.

Michael's Plumb and the very short-lived Club Dax are the only two exceptions, and it only took a couple of years before Michael's took a big turn into the mainstream.

But the others (Confetti, etc.) certainly required less investment than the places in Bricktown, and they frequently featured pack-'em-in drown nights and the like. But the crowds were very different for some reason.


I really like my theory that bars evolved to the point that they largely took the place of clubs for all but a certain type, and I see that that has happened here in California as well.

[Teo9969]

It's not like I've never hung out in clubs. In the eighties and nineties I all but lived in them. I've also spent time in many of the clubs in Bricktown over the past decade+. The problem is that the ones down here over in recent memory have mostly been quick-money, low-rent places that appealed to a low-quality clientele. Also, as Pete mentions, club culture in general has changed greatly. These days it tends to be less glowstick rave and more MMA/Hip-Hop/aggro. That's fine (even appropriate) for places like that to exist, but not in a dense, complex neighborhood that is (still) the primary standard-bearer for your city's downtown renaissance.

They belong in a more insular environment, where if something bad happens it doesn't brand the rest of the area as "troubled." If a shooting happens in the parking lot of a club on Memorial Road, for instance, NODODY suggests Memorial Road is suddenly an unsafe place. Nobody stops shopping at Quail Springs or Lowe's, or eating at PF Changs, or hanging out at Top Golf (when it arrives). THAT is the difference.

Not sure this is accurate…I've heard plenty of negative sentiment directed toward Quail Springs specifically and areas around Memorial because of "undesirables". There are differences to be sure, and Bricktown probably gets hit a little bit harder with negative press than that area because of history and a variety of other factors, but at this point, Bricktown will be able to withstand the handful of stories that come out every 6-12 months. A complete, even moderately sustained onslaught would hurt any area of town, even Nichols Hills (not that that would ever happen).

[Urbanized]

Yeah, I think that is a good theory. Tastes have changed over the years. Society has coarsened. Jersey Shore is mainstream. Not to cast too wide of a net, but my feeling is that thinking youngsters have gravitated to bars, which have more of a sense of community (Millennial buzzword) and are at times almost an extension of coffee shop culture (which mostly emerged in the nineties). Clubs - especially of the meatmarket variety - have often been left with the meatheads and the buttheads.

[Urbanized]

I guess I think the thing that bugs me is the idea (and I know that catch22 didn't really mean this, but it IS said often) that "well, Bricktown already sucks, so let's let it continue to take one for the team, and attract all of the people we don't want to be around, so that our OTHER places can stay cool and pristine..."

Bricktown has had its share of ups and downs, for sure. Believe it or not, there was a time when it was the underground hipster mecca - as much as OKC could offer one in the late 80s and early 90s anyway - that only the cool kids knew about. But it is very important now for the district to step up its collective game, and there is more momentum in this direction than there has been in... ...well... ...maybe ever. It is super-important for not only Bricktown but for the downtown and city (and its taxpayers) as a whole that Bricktown maximizes its potential. That will never happen as long as seedy clubs diminish the clientele and reputation of the district. These changes are needed, and good.

[catch22]

Yeah, I think that is a good theory. Tastes have changed over the years. Society has coarsened. Jersey Shore is mainstream. Not to cast too wide of a net, but my feeling is that thinking youngsters have gravitated to bars, which have more of a sense of community (Millennial buzzword) and are at times almost an extension of coffee shop culture (which mostly emerged in the nineties). Clubs - especially of the meatmarket variety - have often been left with the meatheads and the buttheads.

My brother and I are complete opposites. He's an alpha male and I would consider myself a beta male. He craves the clubs. He goes to Cowboys on S. Meridian (gag) pretty much every Friday and Saturday night. He wants every girl in the place to grind on him and get every girl's number.

Me being the beta, I just want to sit next to a friend over a beer or a drink and be somewhat social. I want to meet people (doesn't even have to be female as I'm not at bars for hookups or to find my match) and just talk and be friendly and social. Make some friends, and go home and not have my ears ringing or a $100 bar tab from buying every single girl a drink.

[TheTravellers]

...Believe it or not, there was a time when it was the underground hipster mecca - as much as OKC could offer one in the late 80s and early 90s anyway - that only the cool kids knew about. ...

Heh, this is believable, I danced at places on the 2nd floor of some of those bldgs back then, I think it was before there were any restaurants there (except the old-skool ones that had been there for ages). Also saw Swans in one of the basements there (one of the first shows Scott Booker promoted, I believe).

Be nice if there were some EDM/IDM/electronic dance clubs around, I'd like to revisit those days.... Have to check out Ed Crunk's gig to see what it's like since that might be the only option right now...

[Pete]

^

I distinctly remember going to a club on the 2nd floor of a warehouse on New Years Eve in 1987/8 and thinking it was really cool and edgy.

Anybody remember the name? "Club" and then three numbers that would have been the address.

[Urbanized]

It's the same space that became Pyramid. It's in the building that houses Bourbon Street, on the second floor above what is now Yucatan Taco Stand and Bricktown Candy Co. I frequented Pyramid often, circa '88-'90. I only went to the preceding place once. I always want to say the name was 508, but that wouldn't correspond to the street number, so if I'm right I don't know where the name came from. I'm pretty sure there was some initial business connection to The Bowery.

By the way, during much of my clubbing period one of my main partners in crime was CT Chandler's son.

[TheTravellers]

508 sounds right for some reason, I've drank and slept too many times since then to remember fully, probably bumped into y'all at some point there (literally)...