2014 Oklahoma Commercial Aviation Discussion

[catch22]

For the record I'm not a Delta employee either.

[LakeEffect]

^I'm just saying since I am not a DL employee the only info I have access to is what DL posts on its website; obviously the mission statement reflects it. But I did appreciate the update you gave.

The reason I posted is because their CFO publicly stated that they were making it a hub... websites often have old info, unfortunately.

[OUman]

^That's cool, no worries . I wonder though what customers in the Pac NW think about this, Alaska Airlines is pretty big up there with a good customer base.

[no1cub17]

^That's cool, no worries . I wonder though what customers in the Pac NW think about this, Alaska Airlines is pretty big up there with a good customer base.

Alaska's been strategically beefing up relationships with int'l partners (such as KE), and also has launched routes out of SLC. They're not gonna go down without a fight. I expect AS and AA to become cozier as well. Lots of chatter on a.net about this the last several weeks. AS and DL fans are out in full force!

[venture]

Most of the Southwest DCA schedules got loaded today, and no good news for OKC in it. After all is said and done it will be the following cities with noted daily flights:

Atlanta - 6 daily
Canton/Akron - 2 daily
Chicago - 9 daily
Dallas 4 daily
Milwaukee - 4 daily
Houston - 4 daily
Indianapolis- 2 daily
Kansas City- 1 daily
St. Louis - 3 daily
Austin - 1 daily
New Orleans - 2 daily
Fort Myers - 1 daily
Nashville - 3 daily
Tampa - 2 daily

The DAL and HOU numbers are still guesses right now and CAK and IND are the rumored final cities to get service.

[PhiAlpha]

http://m.newsok.com/no-hub-no-proble...rticle/3946311


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[HangryHippo]

What a **** mentality by airport leaders.

[venture]

Jennifer Palmer must have gotten lazy putting this together. So many errors.

Ultra-low cost airlines Spirit Airlines and JetBlue Airways operate in Dallas, but not Oklahoma City. Budget carrier Southwest does serve passengers here, but has been heavily focusing on its Dallas Love Field hub, adding flights to Mexico and the Bahamas.

JetBlue is not an ULCC, never has been. They are an LCC and yes...it is a HUGE difference from the product offered by NK. Southwest a budget carrier? Maybe 20 years ago. Focusing on Love Field? Sure...and DCA, LGA, and the AirTran integration. However Mexico and Caribbean flights will never happen from Love Field as the article seems to hint at. The Wright Amendment settlement restricts anyone from flying int'l from Love.

Cynthia Reid, vice president of marketing and communications for the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, said it will take Cleveland a long time to recover and to redevelop its air service.
“With a hub strategy, you’re putting all your eggs in one basket,” Reid said. “We are not a hub market, so what we have to do is make sure we do everything we can to try and expand our air service on multiple levels.”

Except Delta and Frontier have already announced pretty substantial build ups to cover a good part of what was lost. CLE will be fine. Most of all the top O&D markets get to retain nonstop service - on United - and the smaller ones that had little local traffic will go away.

Hubs are determined by individual airlines, though the Federal Aviation Administration also defines them based on annual passenger boardings. Large hubs are defined by the FAA as having 1 percent or more of the nation’s yearly passengers.

When an airline makes an airport a hub, that airline become the dominant carrier at that airport. And it will often fight to stay dominant if another carrier threatens its status.

This was like a half hearted attempt to define "hub" per the FAA and then she just gave up. FAA has definitions for Large Hub, Medium Hub, Small Hub, and Non-Hub. OKC is a Small Hub. She also is confusing the airline specific definition of "hub" in with the FAA one...those two paragraphs - sentences - should have just been left out if she is going to half arse it.

Kranenburg said the airport fared well through the fuel crisis and economic downturn in 2008.
“We’ve bounced back each time. ... We’re as flush as we’ve ever been in regard to passengers,” he said. The airport logged 1.83 million outbound passengers in 2013.

Yet growth is flat for a few years now.

Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport in Washington, D.C., for example, has been on the city’s wish list for years. In 2012 and again in 2013, Oklahoma City was passed over for a proposed route to fill an opening at the busy East Coast airport. But airport officials remain determined to secure that connection eventually.

Southwest got a bunch of new slots, did they even both lobbying to get one of the flights? Probably not.

And though direct flights to Mexico may be on many travelers’ wish lists, pursuing international travel isn’t a high priority for the airport, though it was once offered through a Northwest Airlines subsidiary.

Lacking a customs facility, Will Rogers World Airport can’t accept return travelers from international locales. So if an airline wanted to offer a direct connection to Mexico, it would have to stop in Dallas or Houston on the return trip. The cost, and passenger inconvenience, is not something airlines have been willing to undertake post-9/11, Kranenburg said.

They are speaking of Champion, which connecting it to NW really doesn't mean anything for the context of the story. Why isn't near international a high priority? Considering the size of the oil and gas industry in Calgary, Air Canada should be a pretty big target to get a daily nonstop up there. Oh and hey...they have pre-clearance - no local customs required.

Kranenburg just comes across as...

[catch22]

Our airport management is inept. They really have no vision...they are running on auto-pilot.

I'm not saying I'm expecting a hub. But we need to be more proactive in talking with airlines.

Seattle and Boston are absolute probabilities within 10 years. Seattle more-so.

That article is a great representation of The Oklahoman's reporting and our airport management.

[no1cub17]

50 minute flight to DFW? Huh? I've never had it take more than 35.

Can't read the article as I'm not a subscriber but I'm not surprised at all the factual errors as quoted above. Typical for the jokelahoman.

I have to ask though - why all the hate for our airport management? I'm not sure it's entirely their fault OKC still lacks connections to DCA, SEA, LGA, etc. Don't you guys think that if a market for those routes existed, they would've been started by now? The airlines aren't completely dumb. Okay somewhat dumb, but they're all making profits again - so if they think OKC-xxx will make a profit, they would probably start it - right?

[bradh]

They are probably just using the "published" flight time for OKC-DFW. I've been on that flight where it's scheduled to be 52 minutes but when you get on the plane the pilot announces a flight time of about what you mentioned.

[damonsmuz]

I believe the 50 min flight time listed for DFW is to account for the standard 15 min taxi time factored into all flights. Many times it doesn't take that long to taxi and depending on which approach you have can add/subtract mins.

[venture]

Can't read the article as I'm not a subscriber but I'm not surprised at all the factual errors as quoted above. Typical for the jokelahoman.

If you use the mobile link provided above, it takes me to the full story without going through the NewsOK paywall for the DOK.

I have to ask though - why all the hate for our airport management? I'm not sure it's entirely their fault OKC still lacks connections to DCA, SEA, LGA, etc. Don't you guys think that if a market for those routes existed, they would've been started by now? The airlines aren't completely dumb. Okay somewhat dumb, but they're all making profits again - so if they think OKC-xxx will make a profit, they would probably start it - right?

There are definitely several factors that play in, but (corporate/business) politics is a big one. There has been little indication of the airport pushing to attract new service outside of a marketing agreement to cement G4 service. Is it completely their fault? No, but they are big part of it. In the environment now the airports that get the new service are either the big business markets with an established history or those with very aggressive air development people.

Washington DC is the 4th largest market from OKC - 362 pax per day.
Seattle is 12th...larger than ATL, STL, MSP, and DTW...which we all have nonstop service too. Keep in mind...all have airline hubs, including SEA (AS).
New York is the 8th largest and some how only has one 50-seater a day?

Alaska has been in a big push to expand, and not just against DL. The seem like the most logical addition to OKC in the near term. As far as would they start it on their own? Maybe. However, one of the most aggressive airports in the nation for new development - Akron/Canton - is rumored to be on tap to land 2 daily Southwest flights to DCA. That is a huge score and underlines how an aggressive team can make a difference.

[catch22]

The tone of the quotes in the article are enough for me. They sound bearish about the OKC market. It's hard to successfully pitch a product you don't believe in.

[LakeEffect]

My co-workers, on average, fly to DCA once a month... they'd love a direct flight, even if it means not taking their beloved Delta (I think. )

[no1cub17]

If you use the mobile link provided above, it takes me to the full story without going through the NewsOK paywall for the DOK.

There are definitely several factors that play in, but (corporate/business) politics is a big one. There has been little indication of the airport pushing to attract new service outside of a marketing agreement to cement G4 service. Is it completely their fault? No, but they are big part of it. In the environment now the airports that get the new service are either the big business markets with an established history or those with very aggressive air development people.

Washington DC is the 4th largest market from OKC - 362 pax per day.
Seattle is 12th...larger than ATL, STL, MSP, and DTW...which we all have nonstop service too. Keep in mind...all have airline hubs, including SEA (AS).
New York is the 8th largest and some how only has one 50-seater a day?

Alaska has been in a big push to expand, and not just against DL. The seem like the most logical addition to OKC in the near term. As far as would they start it on their own? Maybe. However, one of the most aggressive airports in the nation for new development - Akron/Canton - is rumored to be on tap to land 2 daily Southwest flights to DCA. That is a huge score and underlines how an aggressive team can make a difference.

NYC is a big head scratcher to me - how on earth does LIT get LGA service before OKC? Not sure if they still have it, but my goodness. Was it one huge corporate contract that sealed that win for LIT? Weird.

Would LOVE LOVE LOVE to get AS to start SEA-OKC. My goodness that would be huge. And you can earn AA EQMs on AS too, so they'd pick up that business from the AA FF base here. DCA is sorely needed too, but much less likely now that AA/US had to divest so many slots. Guess we'll just have to make do with CLT for now - which should lead to shorter travel times - albeit on regional jets. Can't have everything, yet.

[no1cub17]

My co-workers, on average, fly to DCA once a month... they'd love a direct flight, even if it means not taking their beloved Delta (I think. )

Technically AA used to have a direct OKC-DCA flight (with a stop in DFW) - same flight # and same plane, so technically qualifies as a direct flight Not sure if they still do.

[venture]

Southwest confirmed CAK will get DCA service. OKC will not get any daily service from them to DCA. This effectively eliminates OKC's chances unless additional slots are created in the future.

[soonerliberal]

Southwest confirmed CAK will get DCA service. OKC will not get any daily service from them to DCA. This effectively eliminates OKC's chances unless additional slots are created in the future.

Confusing choice for Southwest.. Akron's airport is only 50.8 miles from Downtown Cleveland though. I wonder what the draw to a non-capital small city is for Southwest.

[Snowman]

Confusing choice for Southwest.. Akron's airport is only 50.8 miles from Downtown Cleveland though. I wonder what the draw to a non-capital small city is for Southwest.

May not be true now but rumor was that back when it was really a hub they made it so it was difficult and/or costly for any competitors to come in, so they went to other nearby cities

[venture]

Confusing choice for Southwest.. Akron's airport is only 50.8 miles from Downtown Cleveland though. I wonder what the draw to a non-capital small city is for Southwest.

Akron/Canton was a very successful airport for AirTran and they have probably the top air development team in the nation. It will be interesting to see if they maintain service at CLE or finally just shut it all down and move it to CAK.

[venture]

New AA schedule will be loaded this Sunday. Haven't heard of any additional changes, but hoping for some eqp upgrades to ORD.

[catch22]

Venture, usually new schedules (to be loaded on the airline website) are available in GDS Overnight Friday. So tomorrow if you have access to a GDS system at work, you can probably view the schedule beforehand.

[s00nr1]

Anything out of the new AA schedule?

[HangryHippo]

I'm hoping for philly to be added soon.