Boston Marathon Explosions

[Jim Kyle]

I just alluded to in my last post, how hard it really is to maintain visual contact during a firefight. It's just not easy.

Having once been involved (although only on the extreme periphery) of what turned out to be a friendly firefight, in the spring of 1953 a few miles south of the 38th parallel, I can assure you this is an understatement. The fight was between the point and the rear of the same small patrol, which was probing an area well out from the MLR. The point reported Chinese in the area, the rear saw movement and opened fire, and the point returned the fire. As the artillery observer in a bunker back at the MLR, with the company commander by my side, I was giving them covering fire -- and then they discovered what was going on.

Fortunately for my conscience, nobody was hurt by shell fragments, but the patrol leader died from a gunshot wound.

Identifying individuals in a firefight is next to impossible. And the number of friendly fire incidents over the years is probably at least a thousand, maybe ten thousand, percent greater than has ever been reported. Unless there's a high-profile death such as Gen. Teddy Roosevelt in WW2 or Pat Tillman in Afghanistan, they don't get mentioned...

[venture]

I'm not sure if you know how much respect you lose from the average adult when you "speculate" like that. Man, when bullets are flying and at night, in an urban area, with speeding cars, its insanely hard to keep track of one person. Have you ever tried? If you've not been in a firefight, I'd suggest you leave silly speculations about how hard it is or isn't to manage outcomes to yourself. You say you don't want to denigrate the work of the police and yet you are grasping for anything, anything at all that might allow you to harbor a grudge against their actions. Grasping again, when you've got zero experience in these things and no insight into how the events played out on the scene. So instead of sounding like you are honestly curious, you sound desperate at best and arrogant and disrespectful at worst.

Again, I suggest you leave your thoughts to yourself but feel free to "remove all doubt".

Fantastic posts by the way. You have a perspective that can be shared to us to help educate a lot of us for what we can't possibly understand. The sacrifices you make for our country is definitely appreciated - as well as the insight.

[venture]

Having once been involved (although only on the extreme periphery) of what turned out to be a friendly firefight, in the spring of 1953 a few miles south of the 38th parallel, I can assure you this is an understatement. The fight was between the point and the rear of the same small patrol, which was probing an area well out from the MLR. The point reported Chinese in the area, the rear saw movement and opened fire, and the point returned the fire. As the artillery observer in a bunker back at the MLR, with the company commander by my side, I was giving them covering fire -- and then they discovered what was going on.

Fortunately for my conscience, nobody was hurt by shell fragments, but the patrol leader died from a gunshot wound.

Identifying individuals in a firefight is next to impossible. And the number of friendly fire incidents over the years is probably at least a thousand, maybe ten thousand, percent greater than has ever been reported. Unless there's a high-profile death such as Gen. Teddy Roosevelt in WW2 or Pat Tillman in Afghanistan, they don't get mentioned...

Jim, I also want to thank you for your sacrifices. Your post made me remember parts of the radio chatter tonight from all the LEOs working the scene. The amount of care to detail they took to get every single LEO or innocent out of the line of fire/crossfire was very apparent. I remember several checks until every last person was in a safe position before they proceeded.

[CaptDave]

Having once been involved (although only on the extreme periphery) of what turned out to be a friendly firefight, in the spring of 1953 a few miles south of the 38th parallel, I can assure you this is an understatement. The fight was between the point and the rear of the same small patrol, which was probing an area well out from the MLR. The point reported Chinese in the area, the rear saw movement and opened fire, and the point returned the fire. As the artillery observer in a bunker back at the MLR, with the company commander by my side, I was giving them covering fire -- and then they discovered what was going on.

Fortunately for my conscience, nobody was hurt by shell fragments, but the patrol leader died from a gunshot wound.

Identifying individuals in a firefight is next to impossible. And the number of friendly fire incidents over the years is probably at least a thousand, maybe ten thousand, percent greater than has ever been reported. Unless there's a high-profile death such as Gen. Teddy Roosevelt in WW2 or Pat Tillman in Afghanistan, they don't get mentioned...

Thank you for your service. #lovefromabrother

Indeed - the "fog of war" is real and nearly impossible to comprehend unless you have experienced it. Those 38th Parallel guys were a tough bunch....

[Anonymous.]

So glad this guy is alive (for now).

Reports of internal bleeding, but they will put great medical staff on this guy to keep him alive.


Nice job by the agencies up there.

[kelroy55]

Good posts guys...

[jn1780]

So glad this guy is alive (for now).

Reports of internal bleeding, but they will put great medical staff on this guy to keep him alive.


Nice job by the agencies up there.

He stayed alive this long so I'm sure he will live. If they didn't find him when they did he would have probably died overnight. Now he will die later when the Feds stick a needle in him.

[venture]

He stayed alive this long so I'm sure he will live. If they didn't find him when they did he would have probably died overnight. Now he will die later when the Feds stick a needle in him.

Which that brings up a point they just mentioned on CNN. Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty, so it'll come down to a capital charge by the federal gov't in order for that to happen. Which probably will.

[Just the facts]

My understanding from the press conference is that they didn't read him is Miranda rights. If they do I doubt we hear anything from him - ever. His lawer well tell him to just keep his mouth shut. I hope they do go the death penalty route though. He is only 19 so he should live a long time in a 4X6 cell by himself.

[PennyQuilts]

I'm not sure if you know how much respect you lose from the average adult when you "speculate" like that. Man, when bullets are flying and at night, in an urban area, with speeding cars, its insanely hard to keep track of one person. Have you ever tried? If you've not been in a firefight, I'd suggest you leave silly speculations about how hard it is or isn't to manage outcomes to yourself. You say you don't want to denigrate the work of the police and yet you are grasping for anything, anything at all that might allow you to harbor a grudge against their actions. Grasping again, when you've got zero experience in these things and no insight into how the events played out on the scene. So instead of sounding like you are honestly curious, you sound desperate at best and arrogant and disrespectful at worst.

Again, I suggest you leave your thoughts to yourself but feel free to "remove all doubt".

Way, way out there Sid. You seem determined to twist my words and attribute motivations to me that have no basis in reality. If you want to challenge my comments, stick to what I actually said instead of interpreting them to suit your own point of view. You are going way, way out from what I said and you are dead wrong about why I said them. Sorry I hit a nerve with you but to be fair, you seem springloaded and looking for something to jump on. I wasn't attacking the police and believe you overreacted, frankly. Lighten up and try not to read into things. Is there no room to question without being personally attacked?

[Bunty]

My understanding from the press conference is that they didn't read him is Miranda rights. If they do I doubt we hear anything from him - ever. His lawer well tell him to just keep his mouth shut. I hope they do go the death penalty route though. He is only 19 so he should live a long time in a 4X6 cell by himself.

The death penalty is too quick and easy of a punishment to go through. I'd sooner he rot in a 4x6 or smaller cell that's hopefully colorless and devoid of anything resembling entertainment along with the same bland food and water every day. If they want to put him with other inmates so he can get beaten and raped, then fine with me.

[Just the facts]

The death penalty is too quick and easy of a punishment to go through. I'd sooner he rot in a 4x6 or smaller cell that's hopefully colorless and devoid of anything resembling entertainment along with the same bland food and water every day. If they want to put him with other inmates so he can get beaten and raped, then fine with me.

Sorry Bunty, there was darn typo that totally changed the meaning of my post. I hope they DON'T go for the death penalty. I would rather he sit in a small cell by himself for 60 years. Several years ago I got to sit in a maximum security cell for a few minutes (as part of a jail tour). A few days of that and he will be begging for death and it won't come for 60 more years.

[venture]

Way, way out there Sid. You seem determined to twist my words and attribute motivations to me that have no basis in reality. If you want to challenge my comments, stick to what I actually said instead of interpreting them to suit your own point of view. You are going way, way out from what I said and you are dead wrong about why I said them. Sorry I hit a nerve with you but to be fair, you seem springloaded and looking for something to jump on. I wasn't attacking the police and believe you overreacted, frankly. Lighten up and try not to read into things. Is there no room to question without being personally attacked?

Just because people disagree or challenge opinions doesn't mean they are leveling a personal attack. When ideas and opinions are challenged does not automatically equal and agenda to directly attack a person and the victim mentality is quite unbecoming of some on this board. Too many times are people dishing out harsh criticisms of others but when it is returned they can take it and play victim. Enough is enough. Highly respected members of this board, who risked their life serving our country, pointed out valid concerns of comments being made and all of a sudden they are the bad guys? Pathetic.

[venture]

Sorry Bunty, there was darn typo that totally changed the meaning of my post. I hope they DON'T go for the death penalty. I would rather he sit in a small cell by himself for 60 years. Several years ago I got to sit in a maximum security cell for a few minutes (as part of a jail tour). A few days of that and he will be begging for death and it won't come for 60 more years.

I figured that is what you were saying. Your third sentence didn't really flow with the other parts so figured it was a typo. I completely agree. No to the death penalty. Make him rot for 70 years in jail.

[Mississippi Blues]

Just because people disagree or challenge opinions doesn't mean they are leveling a personal attack. When ideas and opinions are challenged does not automatically equal and agenda to directly attack a person and the victim mentality is quite unbecoming of some on this board. Too many times are people dishing out harsh criticisms of others but when it is returned they can take it and play victim. Enough is enough. Highly respected members of this board, who risked their life serving our country, pointed out valid concerns of comments being made and all of a sudden they are the bad guys? Pathetic.

Beautifully put. Not you aiming it at PQ, but the overall point of it.

[PennyQuilts]

Just because people disagree or challenge opinions doesn't mean they are leveling a personal attack. When ideas and opinions are challenged does not automatically equal and agenda to directly attack a person and the victim mentality is quite unbecoming of some on this board. Too many times are people dishing out harsh criticisms of others but when it is returned they can take it and play victim. Enough is enough. Highly respected members of this board, who risked their life serving our country, pointed out valid concerns of comments being made and all of a sudden they are the bad guys? Pathetic.

Agreed that merely challenging opinions isn't a personal attack. Is that how you see the following?:

You have an interesting way of characterizing people then playing innocent. Passive aggressive much?

It is a very good thing a few people on OKCTalk have nothing to do with law enforcement or the criminal justice system - we do not need people who cannot see past their bias and have a tendency to jump to conclusions without knowing much of anything other than their own fears.

Bias, really? So accuse me of bias and then dismiss my comments as a result. And that isn't going personal? Didn't see you calling him out, Venture.

So why the personal need of yours to label him as an islamic terrorist instead of just a terrorist? If we are going to ignore his ethnic background as a label, why jump to a possible religious one?

A "personal need of yours to label" - hmm. And this isn't a personal attack - that you ignored?

But then, the instant I gave an opinion with which they disagree, the PC police (who were open to speculation in earlier parts of the thread) then attribute the same sort of speculation to some sort of personal bias. "further label and divide" is just insulting, sanctimonious and made up. I don't appreciate it - who would?

He's a terrorist. Why extend the label anymore except to drive a personal bias? Now if we come to the finding that radical islam or other teachings are the reason for their actions, that shouldn't change anything on the way we label him. Unless the intent is to further label and divide.

Clear headed, objective thinking is far more preferable to blind assumptions. PQ may eventually end up being correct about the murderers' motivations, but to ignore other possibilities is reckless and foolish.

Again, I am not in law enforcement, not part of the investigation and just gave an opinion. This was just a nasty way to insult a fellow poster - who never said the authorities shouldn't consider everything in the first place.

How did they let it ride? They got the request, did an investigation and determined nothing was wrong. I think the LEO's did an incredible job no matter how much you want to whine, complain and make assumptions that aren't known yet. Go ahead and respond playing the victim again.

Again, just a nasty post and - again - Venture and Co. say nothing. Hypocritical, much? BTW, you didn't see me going out of my way to attack others for their perceived bias, did you?

I didn't think you would divulge your "source". Concerned about its credibility or too much of a tin foil hat factor? I'm pretty settled that whatever it is cannot match the credibility of people that were actually involved in this operation.

Typical nastiness that doesn't do anything but be nasty. And ignored by the thought police because it suits their purpose.

And then there is Mr. Sanctimonious who takes it upon himself to school me on this. Really? Seriously? And I am the one who is going personal?

I'm not sure if you know how much respect you lose from the average adult when you "speculate" like that. Man, when bullets are flying and at night, in an urban area, with speeding cars, its insanely hard to keep track of one person. Have you ever tried? If you've not been in a firefight, I'd suggest you leave silly speculations about how hard it is or isn't to manage outcomes to yourself. You say you don't want to denigrate the work of the police and yet you are grasping for anything, anything at all that might allow you to harbor a grudge against their actions. Grasping again, when you've got zero experience in these things and no insight into how the events played out on the scene. So instead of sounding like you are honestly curious, you sound desperate at best and arrogant and disrespectful at worst.

Again, I suggest you leave your thoughts to yourself but feel free to "remove all doubt".

In the early parts of this thread, just about all the ones above chimed in on what they thought was happening - and that was okay. At some point, instead of discussing the situation, it got all about schooling a fellow poster. Don't appreciate it. Not being a victim but the gross hypocrisy is annoying. This is a subject that brings out high emotion from all of us but there is no excuse to think that gives you guys the moral high ground to make it personal. The nastiness in this thread came from the ones who simply can't abide by anyone saying something they don't agree with. If you go personal on a fellow poster who is simply stating an opinion, you signal to the world that that is all you have. Emotion has its place but it isn't a license to be unfair and rude. If you want to change my opinion, how about respectfully using reason and civility? "Reading my mind," accusing me of being biased, reckless, etc., isn't called for. If you aren't going to monitor all the posters, don't take it upon yourself to "school" and be rude to the ones with whom you simply disagree. And that is what happened in this thread.

[stick47]

Well said and much over due to be said Penny. I don't appreciate the tin foil hat moniker that Lord Helmet called me either. The trouble with this place is if you aren't espousing left wing views the libs will assassinate your character while the management looks the other way. Seen it over and over again.

[venture]

At some point, instead of discussing the situation...

I would respond further, but its really point and we need to get back to topic. If you wish to discuss this further send a private message.

Well said and much over due to be said Penny. I don't appreciate the tin foil hat moniker that Lord Helmet called me either. The trouble with this place is if you aren't espousing left wing views the libs will assassinate your character while the management looks the other way. Seen it over and over again.

Nothing in this is about right versus left. I have no idea where you even got that. Take that way of thinking back to the Politics section and leave the filth there for people to enjoy if they see fit. I've had many discussions with Mmm and Pete on moderation and they really do a very balanced job when it comes to it. There are several on both sides I would have banned already on the sites I run, but then there would be like 2 people to post in the Politics section. They have done a very good balanced job when it comes to shutting down actions that warrant it, if you disagree take it up with them. Regardless...back to topic. Mmm and Pete feel free to delete all this off topic posts and people can take it to private messages to deal with.

[stick47]

I would respond further, but its really point and we need to get back to topic. If you wish to discuss this further send a private message.



Nothing in this is about right versus left. I have no idea where you even got that. Take that way of thinking back to the Politics section and leave the filth there for people to enjoy if they see fit. I've had many discussions with Mmm and Pete on moderation and they really do a very balanced job when it comes to it. There are several on both sides I would have banned already on the sites I run, but then there would be like 2 people to post in the Politics section. They have done a very good balanced job when it comes to shutting down actions that warrant it, if you disagree take it up with them. Regardless...back to topic. Mmm and Pete feel free to delete all this off topic posts and people can take it to private messages to deal with.

Well, there you go again. "Filth??" Is that your way of slandering a person? Show a reference to my "Filthy" comment or apologize.

[CaptDave]

I would respond further, but its really point and we need to get back to topic. If you wish to discuss this further send a private message.

Thinking I am going to adopt the same attitude. Nothing productive will come of responding.

Bottom line is, the murderers are either captured or dead. I'm glad one of them was taken alive so they can be questioned. Were more people involved? What is really behind their motivation?

I hope the vicitims and their families will find some measure of solace in knowing the primary actors have been identified and caught.

[bluedogok]

Jim, I also want to thank you for your sacrifices. Your post made me remember parts of the radio chatter tonight from all the LEOs working the scene. The amount of care to detail they took to get every single LEO or innocent out of the line of fire/crossfire was very apparent. I remember several checks until every last person was in a safe position before they proceeded.

Communication is key in all of that type of situations where you have many officers descending upon a situation, especially in a nighttime situation. There was an officer killed last year in Lakewood by "friendly fire" in the pursuit of a suspect and a breakdown in communications was cited as the main culprit.

[SoonerQueen]

I have a question that I hope someone can answer. I watched most of the tv coverage from Boston like most of you. I remember suspect #1 was made to take his clothes off and then was taken to a police car handcuffed. I saw him get in the car. The next thing you hear is that his brother ran over him after throwing explosives out of the car. How did suspect #1 get run over by his brother's get away car if he was in the police car? Can someone explain?

[ljbab728]

I have a question that I hope someone can answer. I watched most of the tv coverage from Boston like most of you. I remember suspect #1 was made to take his clothes off and then was taken to a police car handcuffed. I saw him get in the car. The next thing you hear is that his brother ran over him after throwing explosives out of the car. How did suspect #1 get run over by his brother's get away car if he was in the police car? Can someone explain?

Maybe this is what you are remembering.

Suspect sheds clothes, but not Boston police

or this.

WBZ-TV released video of a man laid out on a street in Watertown overnight, with his arms spread out over his head on the ground as police surrounded him.

The man was then apparently ordered to remove his clothes or had his clothes removed before he was handcuffed and put in the back of a police cruiser.
There’s no official word yet on who this man is or why he was taken into custody. It was later revealed that the man is not believed to be involved in the incidents.

[SoonerQueen]

Maybe this is what you are remembering.

Suspect sheds clothes, but not Boston police

or this.

I thought that was the older brother. Thanks for answering my question.

[Plutonic Panda]

If anyone needs to be reminded as to why a LOT of people in world hates America and it's people and is going up everyday, look no further then this very thread.