County Jail

[ljbab728]

And your confidence increases by blending in city, state, and fed folk with zero skin in the outcome? Not seeing how myself. Too many Babas in the kitchen.

I agree. How often does involving our wonderful state legislature improve anything in our state?

[Spartan]

And your confidence increases by blending in city, state, and fed folk with zero skin in the outcome? Not seeing how myself. Too many Babas in the kitchen.

Well state lawmakers (esp the fiscally conservative variety, ie all of them) need to be involved in jail financing to see the real impact of their laws. The city needs to be involved bc this will surely siphon funding sources away from other city initiatives. The DOJ should be involved bc they're really the only stakeholder here that has an issue. This jail needs to comply with their standards, not ours. They're also not saying that it HAS to be a new jail no matter what.

This does not need to involve unilateral action from the County which created the problem to begin with, and continues to waste money on duplication of services.

[kevinpate]

Feds are already involved. Come up with a solution locally, or they will be more involved. They are best left as the wolf at the gate, not let into the dining room voluntarily.

City's only involvement with the county jail should be what they negotiate to pay for space if they use space. Deciding the location, design, who constructs, how it pays, is no more an OKC elected politico issue than it is an Edmond politico, or MWC politico, etc.

As for the state, puh-lease. They can't handle their area of responsibility lately, and if given the chance would simply order that other areas be cut so there would be no need for any new tax. They've done enough damage at the state level in recent years that no county should be inviting them to the table on a local issue like a jail.

If the problem is the county has bad elected folks, well, the voting populace put them there, and for good or bad, have the government they chose.

[ljbab728]

Feds are already involved. Come up with a solution locally, or they will be more involved. They are best left as the wolf at the gate, not let into the dining room voluntarily.

City's only involvement with the county jail should be what they negotiate to pay for space if they use space. Deciding the location, design, who constructs, how it pays, is no more an OKC elected politico issue than it is an Edmond politico, or MWC politico, etc.

As for the state, puh-lease. They can't handle their area of responsibility lately, and if given the chance would simply order that other areas be cut so there would be no need for any new tax. They've done enough damage at the state level in recent years that no county should be inviting them to the table on a local issue like a jail.

If the problem is the county has bad elected folks, well, the voting populace put them there, and for good or bad, have the government they chose.

Great points, Kevin. I agree completely. And getting the state legislature involved so they will "see the impact of their laws" is asking for something they aren't capable of.

[Rover]

Getting the state legislators involved would be interesting. They would just claim if we vote out the commie liberal democrats then all the social problems go away and we won't need a jail. Problem solved without needing to spend any money.

[Spartan]

Your whole post reads sheriff speak, which I'm not sure if that's a joke or not?

Feds are already involved. Come up with a solution locally, or they will be more involved. They are best left as the wolf at the gate, not let into the dining room voluntarily.

City's only involvement with the county jail should be what they negotiate to pay for space if they use space. Deciding the location, design, who constructs, how it pays, is no more an OKC elected politico issue than it is an Edmond politico, or MWC politico, etc.

As for the state, puh-lease. They can't handle their area of responsibility lately, and if given the chance would simply order that other areas be cut so there would be no need for any new tax. They've done enough damage at the state level in recent years that no county should be inviting them to the table on a local issue like a jail.

If the problem is the county has bad elected folks, well, the voting populace put them there, and for good or bad, have the government they chose.

Two things... You asked what "fed folk with no skin in the game" have... I was just responding. Yes, if we fail they will get more involved and send us the bill.

Secondly it should be the turf of all "politico" in those cities that comprise Oklahoma County. They have all tried to get rid of the county before by instating home rule. They all want this control as there is literally no reason for a county govt apparatus here.

The issue also isn't just a jail. It's law enforcement as a whole. You need to think a little bigger and a little more independently as I would hope you're not dumb enough to read county quotes/PR at face value...

[ljbab728]

Your whole post reads sheriff speak, which I'm not sure if that's a joke or not?



Two things... You asked what "fed folk with no skin in the game" have... I was just responding. Yes, if we fail they will get more involved and send us the bill.

Secondly it should be the turf of all "politico" in those cities that comprise Oklahoma County. They have all tried to get rid of the county before by instating home rule. They all want this control as there is literally no reason for a county govt apparatus here.

The issue also isn't just a jail. It's law enforcement as a whole. You need to think a little bigger and a little more independently as I would hope you're not dumb enough to read county quotes/PR at face value...

Spartan, whatever your point is here you're getting a little too personal with Kevin. He is always one of the most reasoned posters here. You seem to be the one who has a very personal issue with our county officials.

[kevinpate]

I have no involvement with the OK CO sheriff beyond an occasional client related conversation with a member of the office. So, no, no sheriff speak here. Your own dislikes may be inferring material not presented. Can't help that, though perhaps you might elect to make more of an effort.

Feds only get involved further if the elected county folks do not act. They could act in a manner to not replace the jail but square peg, round hole enough improvements for the feds to stay away. Not saying that is best. I am saying they are not presently, nor should they be, involved in the decision, unless and until, not before, the local county government fails to deal with its jail issues.

Despite your disdain for county government, it is simply a fact of life. It is not going anywhere. So in the hands of county, love it, hate it, indifferent about it, exists the only card game and the only cards for this hand Jail Hold 'em to be played. if you wanna play skittleball, scuttlecounty or some other game you would prefer to enjoy, that is one that is not being offered on the current menu. No one is closing down the County Commish Cafe anytime soon. So back to reality. It isn't always fun, but at least one doesn't get gored by unicorns or trip over dino eggs.

Again, if the problem is who is sitting as elected decision makers at county, the folks in the county have no one to blame but themselves. they brought them to the dance. So they dance with them. It's definitely possible for county folks, if they use their noggins, to come up with a decent jail. I was pleasantly surprised with how things turned out here in Cleveland County on the jail issue.

And as for the state, irrespective of majority party, one need look no further than the capitol to know legislizards prefer lipstick on a pig approach to either rebuilding of the barn, let alone ever building a proper one.

[Spartan]

I don't aspire for OKC to use its limited noggins to produce a decent jail. I aspire for that capacity to yield a great city, and then anything extra is bonus. If a new jail we dont need is what you're into, you can have that after we get to other priorities.

I know you don't see how. I know you see county govt as a fact of life. The reality is that it isn't and you really need to open your mind. We nearly established county home rule ten years ago but the county commissioners lobby killed it. Consolidated governments exist in Nashville, Miami, Indianapolis, Louisville, Kansas City Kansas, and countless other cities. It is smarter govt and there is no reason we can't be smarter.

[kevinpate]

Yes, they do exist elsewhere. And I'll concede that if things were different, then they wouldn't be the same. And?

The reality is those who are fine with county level government state-wide still are fine with it.
The reality is that those who wish to go a different route may have some desire, but lack the fortitude and financing to bring about their vision for a different form of government, at least anytime soon.
The reality is that jail improvements, or replacement, will happen, via local control or the feds finally saying enough, long before your desired form of government ever gains traction again, let alone actually gets into place ... if it ever does.

What you want, and what is going to happen, simply don't mesh on the same timeline.

We've had a good go at it, but we're not really having the same conversation.
You seem to want a different form of government and then have decisions made as to the county jail issue.
I want the county folks who were elected to make hard decisions to get it resolved before DOJ says enough.
If it is a solid work around rather than a new jail. So be it. Likewise, if it is a new jail, so be it. They need to decide and go forward either way.

[HOT ROD]

could the current jail be re-purposed by the county (or city) into office space when the new building is built? Will the new building be a tower/mid-rise like the current one?

[Spartan]

Yes, they do exist elsewhere. And I'll concede that if things were different, then they wouldn't be the same. And?

The reality is those who are fine with county level government state-wide still are fine with it.
The reality is that those who wish to go a different route may have some desire, but lack the fortitude and financing to bring about their vision for a different form of government, at least anytime soon.
The reality is that jail improvements, or replacement, will happen, via local control or the feds finally saying enough, long before your desired form of government ever gains traction again, let alone actually gets into place ... if it ever does.

What you want, and what is going to happen, simply don't mesh on the same timeline.

We've had a good go at it, but we're not really having the same conversation.
You seem to want a different form of government and then have decisions made as to the county jail issue.
I want the county folks who were elected to make hard decisions to get it resolved before DOJ says enough.
If it is a solid work around rather than a new jail. So be it. Likewise, if it is a new jail, so be it. They need to decide and go forward either way.

I don't get your point on anything.

Why do you really want to spend $400 million on a new jail?

[Jersey Boss]

I don't get your point on anything.

Why do you really want to spend $400 million on a new jail?

There is a difference between "wants" and "needs". This is not a choice between having either a CC or having a detention facility. The detention facility has to comport with constitutional standards of treating citizens who have had their freedoms at least temporarily suspended.

[Jersey Boss]

As far as the relevance of county government it is real and not going anywhere so it must act in a responsible and efficient manner. Wanting home rule and not doing anything till then is a non starter. I do feel however that the boundary lines between cities and counties should be more in line with each other. The idea that parts of OKC are in Cleveland County is cra-cra. I feel that cities or municipalities if you will, should lie completely in one county.

[Goon]

Your whole post reads sheriff speak, which I'm not sure if that's a joke or not?



Two things... You asked what "fed folk with no skin in the game" have... I was just responding. Yes, if we fail they will get more involved and send us the bill.

Secondly it should be the turf of all "politico" in those cities that comprise Oklahoma County. They have all tried to get rid of the county before by instating home rule. They all want this control as there is literally no reason for a county govt apparatus here.

The issue also isn't just a jail. It's law enforcement as a whole. You need to think a little bigger and a little more independently as I would hope you're not dumb enough to read county quotes/PR at face value...

Yes, and in a similar vein, the US could save billions in military spending if we could just get ISIL (et al) to listen to reason.

No one up to now has made any assertion that a philosophical change isn't needed or welcome in re the way we incarcerate our criminals. The fact is, the jail is broken NOW. The pipes are bursting from the walls NOW. The heating/air problems are happening NOW.

What you are proposing is a fundamental philosophy in how/when law enforcement and treatment interact...something that would take several years (at best) before it could be codified and enacted, much less have any effect on the overpopulated OK County jail.

We all get it, you don't want to throw good money after bad. But the fact is, we have an overpopulated hell-hole of a jail that needs an immediate solution. I think it's fair that someone like Kevin can want to immediately fix the most present problem (what to do with the building to house the inmates' immediately), while also recognizing the value in shifting long term to a treatment model.

In the meantime, you would do best to avoid the degrading comments; they make you look ignorant.

[Bellaboo]

could the current jail be re-purposed by the county (or city) into office space when the new building is built? Will the new building be a tower/mid-rise like the current one?

At one time, the sheriff suggested a low rise in Choctaw. Not kidding.

[Spartan]

Yes ^ It will be a low-rise somewhere remote. That is the only thing Whetsel will settle for at the moment.

Yes, and in a similar vein, the US could save billions in military spending if we could just get ISIL (et al) to listen to reason.

No one up to now has made any assertion that a philosophical change isn't needed or welcome in re the way we incarcerate our criminals. The fact is, the jail is broken NOW. The pipes are bursting from the walls NOW. The heating/air problems are happening NOW.

What you are proposing is a fundamental philosophy in how/when law enforcement and treatment interact...something that would take several years (at best) before it could be codified and enacted, much less have any effect on the overpopulated OK County jail.

We all get it, you don't want to throw good money after bad. But the fact is, we have an overpopulated hell-hole of a jail that needs an immediate solution. I think it's fair that someone like Kevin can want to immediately fix the most present problem (what to do with the building to house the inmates' immediately), while also recognizing the value in shifting long term to a treatment model.

In the meantime, you would do best to avoid the degrading comments; they make you look ignorant.

I don't call people ignorant. You hurt your credibility and ruin your authenticity when you do that.

A jail is a 5-7 year solution realistically. You are being dishonest when you claim this is immediate knowing full well that if Whetsel had a magic wand (although he does seem to get everything he asks for..) there would still be financing, location, design, and construction to work through.

We already have a building and a site, so I don't see how minimal retrofit to the existing facility isn't faster. How could that not be faster and less than $400 million? I know they have studies claiming it's costlier. I doubt that, and I have no reason to take a leap of faith with this bumbling inept county govt.

As for the "philosophical changes," those are needed too, and can be implemented faster than a huge construction project. What you mean to say is that there is no will to do so, which is true, and that finding that will to do so will take forever.

It will take even longer once we have a new jail to fill, but how dare you or anyone use a straw man to discredit me and then call me ignorant. My focus is not "philosophical changes," but rather on the bricks and mortar that seem to be the issue. My focus is also on what OKC needs to do with $400 million in the big picture. I think this county govt is not looking at solutions, not willing to consider a minimal approach that just satisfies the DOJ issues. With our streetcar, which costs 1/3rd what this jail will cost by the way, the size of it was a negotiated compromise between the ideal and the feasible. This project needs to be forced to innovate and save money wherever and whenever possible just like every other essential building project.

I think they are only willing to look at rehabbing a high-rise jail into a flat jail, which probably is Infeasible. As someone who does project management in the real world, I know building costs and what can be done. I know that we possess the ability to fix air/HVAC issues. I know we have architects that are smart enough to fix "pipes bursting in the walls NOW." Come on let's not be ignorant. That would be bad.

[hoya]

Well, I'm going to chime in here. I was a public defender for nearly a decade, and I visited that jail once a week or more during that time. It has major structural problems that cannot be resolved. The fact is, it was designed very poorly. There are blind spots within the jail where guards can't see what inmates are doing. The construction is so shoddy that inmates can dig their way through concrete walls with plastic spoons. You can wad up a piece of toilet paper and put it in the right place and the cell doors won't lock. This lets the inmates get out and wander around. If you flush the toilet repeatedly, the water drains out of it, and because the plumbing is badly designed, this lets you pass contraband down through the toilet pipes to anyone in a cell below you. Tie a string to a shank, or drugs, or whatever, and you can lower it down from the 8th floor to the 6th floor or the 4th floor, etc.

There are structural problems with the jail that cannot be fixed. The building must be replaced. I don't care what your expertise is, Spartan, I've been on every floor of that jail. It can't be saved. You haven't been inside it, you haven't seen it.

Now, this is not to say that voters should bend over for Whetsel and the county officials. A lot of the stuff Whetsel says we need has nothing to do with the physical jail itself. He just wants a bigger budget. We need a new sheriff before we build a new jail. But we do need a new jail.

[Spartan]

We spent $52 million in 1991 for that, which is $90.8 million today.

I appreciate the informed perspective and for sure all of those issues must be solved, but it just seems like this is what prisoners do in prison, which goes back to the central issue of visibility and security. I think that issue is also inherent with high rise jails, but I could be wrong.

It seems like Tulsa just recently (last ten years) built a new jail for around $60 million. Tulsa County is relatively close in population to Oklahoma County.

I'm not sure how they design plumbing in high security facilities but I can see the challenges. I just hear that Whetsel wants a $400 million MAPS for Jail. I just don't understand how anyone can defend that.

By the way kudos for being a public defender. That's a tough, thankless, essential job.

[Plutonic Panda]

How much longer is Whetsel's term?

[ethansisson]

It seems like Tulsa just recently (last ten years) built a new jail for around $60 million. Tulsa County is relatively close in population to Oklahoma County.

I'm not sure how they design plumbing in high security facilities but I can see the challenges. I just hear that Whetsel wants a $400 million MAPS for Jail. I just don't understand how anyone can defend that.

It's not entirely clear what your argument is on building a new jail. You've been adamant that you disagree with building a new jail, but what you said above implies that you aren't opposed to a new jail, just to spending $400 million on it. This $400 million number seems outdated given that the Edmond Sun article above quotes Whetsel as saying a new jail would cost $260 million, versus $230 million to rehab the existing jail and add adequate recreation facilities (required by DOJ). For the sake of argument, let's use the $60 million figure you provided as what the Tulsa County jail cost. Would you still be opposed to building a new jail if it were to cost $60 million versus $53 million (roughly the same ratio as 230/260) to rehab the existing one?

You have expressed doubt that it would actually cost as much as it's being made out to cost to renovate the jail, but you're also expressing doubt that building a new jail shouldn't cost more than $100 million. So it seems based on your statements that you acknowledge that the costs for the two options might be similar. Are you against building a new jail even if it's true that the costs for building new compared to renovating and expanding are within about a 15% of each other? If so, I disagree. The existing jail has numerous and significant deficiencies, and improvements to address these would be little more than a band-aide on some of the more severe issues (e.g. supervision). The result would be a substantially inferior jail, likely with poorer outcomes for arrestees/inmates and a shorter lifespan of the facility, compared to building a new one. Just to save a relatively small amount of money in the short-term.

However, your argument, as I have understood it, is that renovating would cost significantly less than building new. How do we know? You say you don't trust the numbers provided by Whetsel, but we don't have any other informed numbers to reason by. To me, the logical conclusion of your argument isn't to oppose building a new jail, but to try to get a trustworthy estimate of what the two options would actually cost.

[Spartan]

Yes, we need a lot more information. I already suggested that the city and state, to the extent they are also involved in this situation, work with the DOJ to figure out what they need us to do at a minimum.

If we are hypothetically choosing between two options with a difference of $30 million, there isn't a single shred of doubt that we should save $30 million. Could you imagine what we could do with $30 million? We would have less debates about where to extend the streetcar. The convention center could finish out its exhibition floor so we aren't stuck with a "Phase 2 in Waiting" area. We could have more senior centers in neighborhoods with actual seniors in need.

The reason that this needs to be weighed against other projects is because those other projects are all weighed against each other. They are talking about using the same funding mechanism, a temporary sales tax, as well. That could be extremely dangerous, coming at a time when state sales tax may get redirected to pay for teacher raises in some bizarre new scheme.

I am just being as vocal as I am because I don't like what I see and I am extremely concerned that this situation is part of the reason we can't have nice things. That is all. We need to be consistent in how we go about these projects and not throw our principles away when it comes to a jail. If anything we should be more principled with a project like that to keep it from getting out of hand, which it already has.

[HOT ROD]

that's just plain ridiculous, a low rise in Choctaw? I thought Oklahoma City was the county seat of Oklahoma county?

Move the presumed by bus/car to downtown for hearings and trials, that's a cost effective way of doing business for Oklahoma County? what about public safety of such a move? Could that be the reason (or at least one of them) why the proposals from Whetsel are not passing - particularly at his proposed budget. ...

NO - build another jail, state of the art, in downtown OKC as a high-rise (no less than 15 floors, perhaps more to account for mental health processing/holding) near the current jail/courthouses/etc. Repurpose the current jail as office space (thus saving the county $$, perhaps leasing space out to other govt agencies such as ACOG, OKC city, Feds), give OKC the best in public safety, the presumed a safe/constructive environment that perhaps could improve their behavior (not just lock them up), and provide a much needed facility to reach to the mental ill. This, for his $400M or whatever likely would pass, not same price for a 'farm' in Choctaw.

[TheTravellers]

... Repurpose the current jail as office space (thus saving the county $$, perhaps leasing space out to other govt agencies such as ACOG, OKC city, Feds), ...

Not sure if it could actually be repurposed as any kind of office building - for one, the windows are minimal and I don't think *anybody* would look at that building and think it'd be a good place to work at, and that's just from the outside. And secondly (and probably more important) - I'd bet the inside walls are concrete or concrete block, and therefore not movable like regular studded/drywalled walls are in most office buildings, so I doubt it could be rehabbed on the inside as an office building. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, though, as I've never been inside...

[hoya]

It cannot be turned into an office building. The whole thing is concrete. Crappy concrete.