Public safety #1

[rcjunkie]

I've tried to stay out of this one, however, if your upset about the way your treated by the City, and feel as though your being neglected, don't have/can't get the equipment you need, maybe it's time to do as I did, retire or find another job. For every policeman or firefighter job that opens up, there will be at least 50--75 apply.

Norman just took applications for 17 firefighter positions and have over 700 applications.

[andy157]

I don't know, maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm too close, or too jaded or biased on this issue. Maybe I'm incapable of being objective on this issue, or for that matter, any Fire related issue. Maybe.

However, it seems strange that the taxpayers whose lives that are at stake here, are mad at the Firefighters. It could be the lives of their loved ones that may very well depend on the Firefighters having the proper equipment to be saved, and your mad, at the Firefighters.

Your complaining about the Firefighters, because the Firefighters are complaining about not having the proper equipment. In this case we're talking about RESCUE Ladder Trucks.

Maybe the Firefighters should just stop worrying about the issue,and simply protect themselves by staying out harms way. If the worst happens and someone dies that could have been saved, then so be it.

[okcsmokeandfire]

I've tried to stay out of this one, however, if your upset about the way your treated by the City, and feel as though your being neglected, don't have/can't get the equipment you need, maybe it's time to do as I did, retire or find another job. For every policeman or firefighter job that opens up, there will be at least 50--75 apply.

Norman just took applications for 17 firefighter positions and have over 700 applications.

RC,

I was wondering when you were going to come out of the woodwork again. lol

I will be sure to let you know when I am ready to retire, but at the current point I am not anywhere close to being ready.

How is me retiring going to help us get equipment replaced in a timely fashion so that we may better serve the citizens.

I dont see OKC taking applications for a number of years to come. If there are mass number of retirements, the city will not hire anyone to replace them.
Which gets you further in the hole with staffing and safety. That is their grand plan, in order to get our numbers down to minimum staffing.

You are right though there are many who want to be firefighters and police officers. They just have no idea what is in store for them.

Its not enough, that you bust your ass for years for these guys that run this city. On top of that, you have to deal with trying to take action to try to secure your jobs.

[Midtowner]

If it is a fight that they want, it is a fight that they will damn well get...............

Well, you've already seen what happens when you run a balls-to-the-wall campaign which runs contra to the attitudes at city hall. You lose soundly.

But feel free to keep beating that drum. See where it gets you.

[okcsmokeandfire]

Well, you've already seen what happens when you run a balls-to-the-wall campaign which runs contra to the attitudes at city hall. You lose soundly.

But feel free to keep beating that drum. See where it gets you.

I guess that you were absent in undergrad school when they taught basic math. A 54% yes against a 46% no, does not constitute a sound victory.
At best it is a victory, by a narrow margin, but still a victory that you were sweating until the last hour. It took the Mayor and his friends getting on every television, newspaper, and radio ad possible to get it done. lol
Not to mention having to spend a few million dollars to get it done.

The funny thing about that was that we opposed the big city establishment of business as usual, armed with some t-shirts, a little money, and some paper flyers and got 46% of the vote. I would not call our campaign balls to the wall, because it is nothing compared to what we are capable of.

We had a moderate amount of participation from our memberships. We got our message out and that is all that we intended on doing. If we wanted to win, we would have spent alot more money and had a lot more manpower.

When you grow up a little bit and get some work experience, you will figure out that when you want change, you just dont rollover and give in. You have to draw the line in the sand and fight for what you believe in. Thats is exactly what we intend on doing.

We will see where that gets us and we are going to keep on beating that drum....We are going to beat the hell out of that drum until the fire and police staffing issues, equipment and safety issues get addressed, period.

[BigD Misey]

Just wanted to interject the fears of right to work areas with the unions...
Having seen many union leaders go sideways to extremes, I can understand why people have the fears they do. Having worked with the local Pipefitters and Electrical unions, I also have certainly seen the benefits of employees unions and their concerns for the rights of the workers. But, let’s be honest here, the unions are not ignorant of the fears of non-union workers/employers.

The Firefighters union is quite a different situation though. Firefighters will never have to doubt the appreciation of the citizens, for the majority really do view this as a noble and heroic service. Upon learning of the needs, they will pour out their support. But, it will take some time. Let’s face it, the city and the Firefighters unions are no different than any other business. They must meet their budget and when there are deficiencies or upgrades are needed, they must be planned. Because of the stand they took with MAPS, the people now know there are deficiencies with public services that must be met. New equipment, more employees and so on. Now that they know, I think the unions are doing a good job of giving the citizens some time while continuing to lobby. It is the normal carousel of union employment. But, for those who have been bitten by the extremism of other unions, you can understand why they might be a little emotional about the whole process.

I have also been witness to the extreme rhetoric the leaders some unions will go to, which will put the owners and employers at odds. What do you do when auto workers pull out on strike? Spend millions training non-union employees? Not very cost effective, so in the end the union wins out because even though the employer only spent 1/2 of the millions trying to please the union, it isn't necessarily that the unions deserve the amount settlement, it’s that there is no alternative solution. My former employer finally decided to move his entire manufacturing plant to Durant OK from Canada! Cost him millions of dollars to move all the machinery and inventory and employees. But, after the unions annually forcing his hand, he bit the bullet. Now he's making more revenue and has more control and well, several hundred Canadians union workers are out of work. They begged and begged him to stay, but they built a history of abusing the principals that unions were meant to abide by -Fair employment. It now wasn't fair to the employer. So I do understand the fears of some.

But, as I said earlier, the Firefighters union will never have to doubt the citizens, just give them time and they will empower the city for the changes.

[okcsmokeandfire]

Just wanted to interject the fears of right to work areas with the unions...
Having seen many union leaders go sideways to extremes, I can understand why people have the fears they do. Having worked with the local Pipefitters and Electrical unions, I also have certainly seen the benefits of employees unions and their concerns for the rights of the workers. But, let’s be honest here, the unions are not ignorant of the fears of non-union workers/employers.

The Firefighters union is quite a different situation though. Firefighters will never have to doubt the appreciation of the citizens, for the majority really do view this as a noble and heroic service. Upon learning of the needs, they will pour out their support. But, it will take some time. Let’s face it, the city and the Firefighters unions are no different than any other business. They must meet their budget and when there are deficiencies or upgrades are needed, they must be planned. Because of the stand they took with MAPS, the people now know there are deficiencies with public services that must be met. New equipment, more employees and so on. Now that they know, I think the unions are doing a good job of giving the citizens some time while continuing to lobby. It is the normal carousel of union employment. But, for those who have been bitten by the extremism of other unions, you can understand why they might be a little emotional about the whole process.

I have also been witness to the extreme rhetoric the leaders some unions will go to, which will put the owners and employers at odds. What do you do when auto workers pull out on strike? Spend millions training non-union employees? Not very cost effective, so in the end the union wins out because even though the employer only spent 1/2 of the millions trying to please the union, it isn't necessarily that the unions deserve the amount settlement, it’s that there is no alternative solution. My former employer finally decided to move his entire manufacturing plant to Durant OK from Canada! Cost him millions of dollars to move all the machinery and inventory and employees. But, after the unions annually forcing his hand, he bit the bullet. Now he's making more revenue and has more control and well, several hundred Canadians union workers are out of work. They begged and begged him to stay, but they built a history of abusing the principals that unions were meant to abide by -Fair employment. It now wasn't fair to the employer. So I do understand the fears of some.

But, as I said earlier, the Firefighters union will never have to doubt the citizens, just give them time and they will empower the city for the changes.

Great post. Good message.

You obviously understand the big picture.

Once again, great post.

[andy157]

Based on the following comparisions given to me last night, which I trust as correct, it may be in the best interest of the parties to form a coalition task force and head down to Austin and check them out. Austin must be doing something right. OKC needs to find out what they're doing, and how they're doing it.

OKC uses a "Market Approach" to determine wages and rates of pay for the Firefighters. The City and the Firefighters have agreed to, and use, 10 various City's to make up the market, Austin being 1 of the 10.

Regarding wages and compensation of the 10 City's, Austin ranks #1, OKC #5

Austin has 43 Fire Stations, OKC has 35 (going to 38, maybe)

Austin has 1,146 Employees, OKC has 981

Austin has a Fire Budget of 120 million, OKC has a Fire Budget of 121 Million.


Austin has more stations, more empoyees being paid more money and they do it for less cost. It may be worth a 8 hour road trip to find out their secret.

[Midtowner]

I guess that you were absent in undergrad school when they taught basic math. A 54% yes against a 46% no, does not constitute a sound victory.

That was the same margin as MAPS I which had no real organized opposition. Spending $140,000 and not even gaining a single percentage point in your favor is a sound defeat. And an 8% gap in any general election is pretty wide.

[Wambo36]

That was the same margin as MAPS I which had no real organized opposition. Spending $140,000 and not even gaining a single percentage point in your favor is a sound defeat. And an 8% gap in any general election is pretty wide.

MAPS1 was was considered a narrow margin of victory at the time. The idea was new and unproven and the proponents were happy to get a victory of any kind. That was with the city unions putting money and manpower to work supporting the campaign. Now the same margin of victory for what was supposed to be a proven commodity and a bulletproof idea is considered a landslide? You should get a job writing history books. I'd love to see your version of some other past events.

[OSUFan]

It is closer then we are used to here lately, but an 8% win is not considered all that close.

[Wambo36]

I agree, but given the way it was supposed to glide through on the accomplishments of the past initiatives and a popular mayor, I think Mid is discounting the the effect the PS employees a little too harshly. Just an opinion.

[Midtowner]

I agree, but given the way it was supposed to glide through on the accomplishments of the past initiatives and a popular mayor

It did and it will continue to do so.

If Police and Fire were to look around, they'd find themselves in a hole right now. The first rule about getting out of a hole is to stop digging... yet for some reason, that's what they continue to do.

Negotiating for raises and more employees while every other municipal department is running double digit losses is the very essence of continuing to dig.

Maybe they'll figure it out. Maybe not.

[Wambo36]

If Police and Fire were to look around, they'd find themselves in a hole right now. The first rule about getting out of a hole is to stop digging... yet for some reason, that's what they continue to do.

Hold that thought. I think you'd be suprised what a little pro-active digging can accomplish.

Negotiating for raises and more employees while every other municipal department is running double digit losses is the very essence of continuing to dig.

Once again you prove you have no lack of opinion on things you know absolutley nothing about. Unless you are privy to something in negotiations that the rest of us aren't, you might want to stop now.

[andy157]

It did and it will continue to do so.

If Police and Fire were to look around, they'd find themselves in a hole right now. The first rule about getting out of a hole is to stop digging... yet for some reason, that's what they continue to do.

Negotiating for raises and more employees while every other municipal department is running double digit losses is the very essence of continuing to dig.

Maybe they'll figure it out. Maybe not.

Mid, what, or who has you believing the Firefighters are negotiating for a raise?

[Midtowner]

Y'all won an arbitration case giving a 1% raise, did you not?

No, you were not negotiating for further raises, but instead were negotiating for increased personnel -- something which would undoubtedly have cost the city a lot more than raises in the long run.

[Wambo36]

Increased personnel? We'd just like them to keep up with the people who are leaving. They haven't been doing that for 15 years.
As far as the 1% raise, that hasn't gone into effect so you can stop worrying about us bankrupting the city. Is that how you handle your legal cases? We win in arbitration and then win again in court and if you were our attorney you'd have us just walk over and apologize to them for the trouble and give it back to them? In the long run that may be exacly what happens but that's down the road a ways. Try not to get into any situations that require negotiations. You don't seem cut out for it.

[kevinpate]

... Austin must be doing something right. OKC needs to find out what they're doing, and how they're doing it.
...
Austin has more stations, more empoyees being paid more money and they do it for less cost. It may be worth a 8 hour road trip to find out their secret.

may?

andy, you definitely have a gift for understatement.

Unless there is something obvious on paper that explains it, making a trip a needless expense, I can't fathom how city fathers or union heads could straight face say it is a bad idea to examine how a peer provides more service with fewer taxpayer dobbers.

Maybe OKC offers services they don't and it's not apples to apples, but it's worth finding out.

[andy157]

may?

andy, you definitely have a gift for understatement.

Unless there is something obvious on paper that explains it, making a trip a needless expense, I can't fathom how city fathers or union heads could straight face say it is a bad idea to examine how a peer provides more service with fewer taxpayer dobbers.

Maybe OKC offers services they don't and it's not apples to apples, but it's worth finding out.

Gee, I believe your the first to ever accuse me of understating an issue. Generally I'm accused of demagoguery. I would also suggest there be an equal number of Citizens on the task force to act as a nuetral third party, just to keep both sides honest.

[tehvipir]

Now is that thier operating budget? or is that just a taxed based budget? I know that austin has ems but is it tied with their FD? if so do they bill? what other revenue sources does Austin have that we dont?

Also, midtowner and others that believe that this is union tactics. I personaly am new to the FD and i sit back and listen to the old timers tell their stories about how for the past x amount of years that city has been doing this getting away with that. Honestly I dont believe you have ANY idea nor does the general public about whats going behind closed door. you only hear what the mainly biased media has been saying. I am no where close to completely understanding the extent of the long history between the city and the FD but i do one thing, i listen, read what the city council puts out.

BIG D is right, great post. I grew up with a Mine based Union and saw my father be without a job for 2 months because of stirke and the next time they went on strike he was salary so he stayed at the mine for 1 month working while the unions walked out. Also we had neighbors that werent allowed to come over as friends during the strike so i have personally seen the BAD unions. the fire unions are no where close to that.

You say we are diggin ourselves a hole? are we really? Do you know how much we are educating the public about our situation that is haunting us with both man power and aparatus. do you know how many times a day the citizens tell us its wrong what the city is doing to us and ask how they can help us?

Man power does cost the city more yes, but you loose enough people and they are GOING to have to replace them. a recruit academy takes approx 16weeks to get those guys to the rigs.

basically Midtowner is there is so much more than meets the eye or is being reported. We arent the greedy unions that the UNION anme has made out to be. We are just looking for employment rights and holding the city to what they agreed upon.