Ford Center improvements up for March 4 vote

[solitude]

Can also put a little perspective in it and say the the practice facility will cost you about the same as a Snickers

That's not true at all. You've been snookered with the analogy of Snickers. A penny tax per dollar equals the cost of a candy bar? I just bought a terabyte hard drive for $500.00. That transaction alone would be 500 pennies. That's $5.00 on one transaction. You multiply the sales at the register through the days, weeks, months, the year and how do you get the cost of a Snickers bar? Even broken down into the practice facility vs all other projects, it's way more than a candy bar. That doesn't add up. In my analogy above with my hard drive purchase, almost a dollar of that would be for the practice facility alone!

A thousand dollar laptop? I would pay around $2.00 extra for the practice facility alone. I shouldn't have to pay a nickle for that. Not a cent.

[Easy180]

I can see where folks can be against it in principle, but the personal contribution aspect is a joke....Penny tax lapses not one person will notice it in their pocketbook

[andy157]

First - the bond issue we passed was for $750 million, not $75 and it was dedicated to public infrastructure improvements (streets, roads, parks), with the exception of Prop 11, which is very accurately described in another post by SilverMoon. One thing I would add regarding economic development incentives at the local level is that Texas has a state law that allows municipalities to collect up to a full penny sales tax that goes into a permanent economic development fund. Most cities take advantage and have funds far larger than what we approved with Prop 11. The last thing we want is to consistently lose to Texas.
It is important when you get to the end of negotiations with a company to have a tool like this to compete. Without it, we would have nothing.

The campaign to pass this election is entirely privately funded. It would be a violation of state law for the city to spend a penny on this campaign. The campaign has/will file all documents required by local ordinance and state law, as we did in both the Citizens for Kids (school bond) and OKC YES (bond issue) campaigns. Both of those campaigns were funded privately as well.

ChamberCyn, Can you please explain the reason for, or the logic behind, only asking the citizens (I am one) for 75 mil to compete with Texas, since the last thing we want to do is lose to them. If we want to beat them so bad (I do) and they have funds bigger than ours, Why not 100 mil, 200 mil or whatever amount. Just curious.

[Architect2010]

It is NOT an one penny "INCREASE"!!!!

ITS AN EXTENSION! The same sales tax that we have been paying for over ten years!!! That needs to cleared up too! I think people believe that it is an increase when it isnt...

[andy157]

It is NOT an one penny "INCREASE"!!!!

ITS AN EXTENSION! The same sales tax that we have been paying for over ten years!!! That needs to cleared up too! I think people believe that it is an increase when it isnt...

If it is not an "INCREASE", only an "EXTENSION", does that also mean it is not a "DECREASE"!!!!

[CuatrodeMayo]

It looks like we could get the NBA and all the prestige it brings for a comparative song. Why so many people on this board are begrudging a 20 million-dollar facility is beyond me.

If you divide the 20 mil between the 500k or so residents of OKC, and divide that by 15 months, you get $2.66 per person, per month...or 3 Snickers.

And yes, Architect, it is NOT an increase.

[metro]

so what does this mean for the people who don't like Snickers?

[CuatrodeMayo]

You can buy a bag of baby carrots.

[Slivermoon]

I’ve heard many arguments (e.g. "I never go to Bricktown.” “Why should my tax dollars go to just benefit Bricktown.” “I hate basketball” “I never went to a Hornets Game,” The NBA is holding the City hostage,” etc.).

My personal perspective is this. My wife and I have no children, not for lack of trying. Maybe some day we will adopt and maybe not. Nonetheless, we have both consistently voted in favor of every school bond initiative put forth to us because it has been our considered opportunity and opinion to improve our community at large and our neighborhood, our quality of life and, yes, our personal property value.

Just because you have a personal issue with one aspect of the proposition or a personal bias with the issue it should not necessarily deal a death blow to the whole package. Please consider a global view for Oklahoma City. If, after that, you decide against, then of course please exercise your right against moving forward.

[solitude]

I have to go back to the hypocrisy of so-called "conservatives" pushing this "it's just an extension" so hard. They are the same people saying if we don't make Bush's tax cuts permanent, it's a "tax increase." The fact is, both of these things were meant to be temporary. Both of these also were sold with the "temporary" promise and both had detractors who said as long as politicians were involved it would be permanent. So far - so true.

As to the argument above by Silvermoon - paying for schools and giving money to the NBA are two very different things.
The idea the city should be subsidizing the NBA at all is ludicrous.

[andy157]

It's to bad there is no way to turn back time. But just think if we could. All of the NBA caliber City's across this U.S. of A. could have gotten together and made some rules of their own. First. Before the NBAs Board of Governors beat them to the punch.

Lets say for example before the Lakers set up shop in L.A. they had to provide the citizens with x numbers of playgrounds, or build a new(or upgrade a old) zoo, or up grade the elementary schools.

Who knows M.J. could have been playing for the L.A. Bulls. Well, that is if the Bulls owners had been willing to beat the Lakers offer and throw in 5 more playgrounds and 50 miles of bike trails. Throw ole Mark Cuban into the mix. If I'm a citizen in L.A. I'll be watching the L.A. Mavericks on my 50 inch plasma. Paid for by Quess who.

[Doug Loudenback]

I've put together an unabashed pro-vote flash file video using images from the Hornet's 2 seasons here. It uses the NBA rap tune as its background.

Doug Dawgz Blog: Unabashed Ford Center Vote Video

[solitude]

I've put together an unabashed pro-vote flash file video using images from the Hornet's 2 seasons here. It uses the NBA rap tune as its background.

Doug Dawgz Blog: Unabashed Ford Center Vote Video

Doug, in all seriousness, how do you deal with the "thug quotient" in the NBA? We had the Hornets with Chris Paul - a major exception to the rule. Most of these multi-millionaire players are out and out millionaire street thugs. Read books! There's book after book about their sense of entitlement to women, etc. These guys are the lowest of the low that happen to be able to play a GAME and are able, for the most part, to buy their way out of trouble before it explodes with their weighted down wallets with wads of cash. I don't mean this as a dig at the league you love so much, but truly, how do you reconcile the "thug quotient" of these grossly overpaid street punks? (And I know there are exceptions, but reading several books - the thuggery and crimes against women, funding gangs under the table, etc. is all part and parcel of the NBA.) How do you accept this? Truly?

[betts]

You can look at the tax in the reverse. I spend $4.65 a day for a Starbucks latte. It's my vice. I would have to spend $169,725 dollars a year for food and stuff to pay the equivalent of $4.65 a day in tax. Were I to buy myself a diet Dr. Pepper a day instead (actually, I have two vices), I'd have to spend $47,085 a year on food and stuff to spend the equivalent of what I spend a day on a single diet Dr. Pepper.

I would actually be willing to give up my latte and Diet Dr. Pepper for 18 months if it meant we could upgrade the Ford Center and get an NBA team. I'd give it up for 15 months just to upgrade the Ford Center. Since no one is asking me to do that, I'm just going to say that if we pass this tax proposition, I will only shop in Oklahoma City during the 15 or 18 months the tax is in force. No catalog shopping, no Edmond or Norman. I want to support the arena and our city. People who oppose the tax can simply do the opposite, even if it passes. Edmond, Moore, Norman, the Village, etc.....it's an easy tax to avoid paying.

[Karried]

how do you reconcile the "thug quotient" of these grossly overpaid street punks? (And I know there are exceptions, but reading several books - the thuggery and crimes against women, funding gangs under the table, etc. is all part and parcel of the NBA.) How do you accept this? Truly?

Is that the true reason for not wanting to pay for a practice facility, because of a dislike of the NBA?

While this is another argument/topic, if you look at all forms of entertainment that you probably pay for ,ie celebrities, pro sports, college sports, musicians, actors etc, etc.. you'll find plenty of 'thugs' and thuglike activities - mass amounts of money= feelings of entitlement and feeling above the law.

Does the fact that Keifer Sutherland just got out of jail yesterday for repeated DUI's prevent you from buying a HDTV or paying more for your cable bill? Maybe not the best analogy but I can't help but think that there are some deeper underlying issues here other than the penny sales tax.

And yet, you'll find plenty of upstanding people who will do the right thing, make the right choices, donate to charities, do community service etc. Of course, the negative publicity is more newsworthy.

Maybe it's a selfish thing on my part but I'm willing to not let a few bad apples spoil the love of the game, maybe we did get lucky with Chris Paul, PJ Brown, David West etc etc.. and I guess I can overlook some of the shadier aspects of pro sports because of the excitement, the boost to our local economy and all of the intangible benefits that the NBA will bring.

[Architect2010]

Yes... It means it stays the same....
It doesnt increase or decrease. So
there should be no controversy over
an increase in sales tax...

[Decious]

..maybe we did get lucky with Chris Paul, PJ Brown, David West etc etc..

Nah. It's not luck. It's not hard at all to find a black man with good morals. I pride myself in being one along with my father and my five brothers.

Needless to say, anyone who would categorically spout that MOST of the players in the NBA are lowest of the low, oversexed, overpaid street thugs simply wishes it that way in their mind.

Solitude, name one "thug" who plays for the Lakers, Hornets, Suns, Mavericks, Sonics, Rockets, Bulls, Celtics, etc.

To degrade an entire group of people based on hearsay and a few idiots is cruel. It would be just as easy for me to think you a racist for wanting to propagate such a skewed way of thinking and branding.

Instead of asking Doug how he manages to not be overtaken by a stereotype, maybe we should ask you what your motivation was for reading all the "NBA gangsta" books that you read.

[betts]

I cannot think of a single player on the Hornets, and I have to include Byron Scott, whom I would not be delighted to have as a neigbor, a friend, or a son-in-law(well, maybe not Byron here), and I'm not African-American. How can they be atypical for the league? The few thugs get all the publicity, and yet there are so many of them who are wonderful members of their community. Tim Duncan? Or how about David Robinson? I cannot imagine anyone I'd rather my children chose for a role model than him.

[Doug Loudenback]

Doug, in all seriousness, how do you deal with the "thug quotient" in the NBA? We had the Hornets with Chris Paul - a major exception to the rule. Most of these multi-millionaire players are out and out millionaire street thugs. Read books! There's book after book about their sense of entitlement to women, etc. These guys are the lowest of the low that happen to be able to play a GAME and are able, for the most part, to buy their way out of trouble before it explodes with their weighted down wallets with wads of cash. I don't mean this as a dig at the league you love so much, but truly, how do you reconcile the "thug quotient" of these grossly overpaid street punks? (And I know there are exceptions, but reading several books - the thuggery and crimes against women, funding gangs under the table, etc. is all part and parcel of the NBA.) How do you accept this? Truly?

I'll try to put together a reply though I don't know that it will be complete. But, here's a start ...

First, about the facts that you assert ... thugs and street punks ... I don't personally know whether what you say is true or not. I don't doubt that many NBA players have less than desirable backgrounds and certainly there have been high profile examples of what you describe. The same criticism could be made of any professional sport, I'd suppose. On the other hand, I don't have the sense that the NBA is akin to a line out of Conan the Barbarian when Conan said something to the effect that a warrior's greatest joy was to kill all the people and plunder the women. Certainly, Eddie Sutton was known for giving second chances to young men with troubled backgrounds maybe because he'd been given such a thing himself ... and now, it seems, a third. As I recall, Coach Scott came from such a background and I certainly consider him to be one cool fellow and it would be unbelievable were I to have the privilege of being his next door neighbor.

But, stepping aside from that for a second ... I could have personally cared less, one way or another, about the NBA before I attended my 1st preseason game game when the Hornets first arrived. I'd never even watched a whole NBA game on TV. Didn't care to.

During that 1st game, though, something obviously happened. The play was exciting enough to watch even though it was merely a preseason game that didn't really count for anything ... except that it did. It counted for me, and the other Oklahoma Citians who were there, in a personal way.

What I was increasingly becoming a part of was the coming together of the whole city, all economic elements, all races, all ages, all having the same very tangible and common focus. It was a joy to behold and be a part of it all. I've never been a part of anything in this city akin to what the Hornets did in all of my 64 years. It was unique.

Sure, we can root for our home college teams, but this team was something that transcended everything else and was much more than symbolic. It didn't matter if you were an Aggie or a Sooner or attended no college at all, were wealthy and had a suite or a courtside seat or only had $10 for a cheap seat in Loud City. We were all in it together and I came to look forward to each and every opportunity to repeat the experience. We were (and some of us would still say, "are") Hornets fans ... well, actually, "Oklahoma City" Hornets fans, even though most of us were well aware that the "Oklahoma City" part was likely to be short lived, even if the hope was present that it would not be.

This affection was not one-way. The team members "liked us back" and we were glad that they did. I could give several examples of that should you want them. They fed off of us, and we fed off of them.

Now, back to the hoodlum part. As I said, I don't really know. I do know that the players and the ownership were actively involved with the community, and it was not only Chris Paul doing that. I'm trying to think of examples on the team of what you mean ... the closest thing that comes to mind is Chris "Birdman" Anderson who trashed, perhaps not permanently, his career by doing hard drugs. Maybe you can point to other examples but I can think of none.

But, even if there are such examples, consider your own position. I don't recall if you are an OU fan, an OSU fan, or that you identify with any college team at all. If you do ... has your team, football, basketball, not had examples of the types you mention and would you want to disband the sport involved altogether when those ugly incidents become items in the news?

Letting my mind wander just a bit, I come up with the following ...

OU Drops College Football - the Sooners Are To Be No More!

March 4, 2008
by Berry Tramel for the Oklahoman

President Boren, citing years of NCAA infractions by his crimson and cream, announced that the straw had finally come which broke the camel's back when sophomores John Doe, Joe Doe, and Bill Doe plead guilty yesterday to first degree rape in District Court. "While we let go of our storied past with deep regret," he said, "I cannot in good conscience continue this university along the path which is littered with disrespect for the rule of law, so much so that this university has today committed itself to a different path than we have sadly become well known for in the past." He added, "In this, I am confident that we are setting an example for all other schools in the Big Twelve Conference to follow if, indeed, not the whole of college athletics." In making his announcement, his words were received by a standing ovation by those present.

This reporter drove to Stillwater following Boren's press conference, and he asked incoming OSU President Burns Hargis if he would follow his college cousin's lead. Hargis only said, "No comment," as he grinned from ear to ear.

Perhaps I should add that I'm an OSU guy. Go Cowboys!

Yes, that's just me being silly and far-fetched! To shift focus from Oklahoma City, I can't see San Antonio, or Dallas, or Denver, and so on, coming to have the collective view of terminating their relationship with their teams on account of what you maintain is true. So, if what you say is pervasively so, I guess that those cities "just don't get it."

You also mentioned, "overpaid." Maybe so but I suppose that's just a matter of supply and demand. The "demand" comes from little guys like you and me who are willing to attend games, given the opportunity. If the product is sufficiently demanded, it will bring what the public is willing to pay to have it. I see nothing wrong, or unique, in that.

That's what I can think of to say to, if not to answer, your questions. Probably I've left something out. Perhaps a more probing question, "Why is it that 'competitive team sports' are so popular at all?" could be asked, and I'd probably be hard pressed to give a good answer to that one!

In the end, it's not that I'm such a fan of the NBA itself. As I said, pre-Okc Hornets, I could have cared less. I was and am a fan of the team that played here which could not have existed without the parent organization. I was and am a fan of the collective melding which occurred when the team was here. I will be such a fan for the next team that comes here, as well, should I be so lucky.

[HOT ROD]

exactly betts.

Im hoping that solitude was just having a 'soap-box moment.' I usually agree with him but this NBA-thug rant was quite inappropriate and obviously untrue.

Sure there are some thugs in the NBA, but there are in the NFL and it is the #1 pro sport in the world. In fact, there's thugs everywhere - but we dont go around generalizing them (we dont say NFL thugs do we??).

So, while I agree that there are thugs in the NBA I feel that it is horribly wrong and inexcusable for Solitude to label all black players in the NBA who dress and listen to hip-hop *or dare I say the colour of their skin* as THUGS (as I and possibly others assume you meant).

Often times, when you TRY to get to know a person different from you - you will find out that they are not much different than you. Try it sometime!!!

[Doug Loudenback]

Instead of asking Doug how he manages to not be overtaken by a stereotype, maybe we should ask you what your motivation was for reading all the "NBA gangsta" books that you read.

No, Decious, I thank Solitude for being a good "straight man" who provided me the opportunity to express myself (as if I've otherwise been shy)!

Tyson Chandler quickly became a favorite of mine ... Okc was where he really came to be what he could become on the court ...



Taking a couple of pages from my Hornet's retrospective flash file at Doug Dawgz Blog: Okc Hornets Retrospective , enjoy the short read, below ...





Yeah, and we loved him back!

[JOHNINSOKC]

I wish the people who are so critical of what the Ford Center improvements will bring to this city would look at the long-term perspective and realize that by doing nothing and accepting the status quo, they are , in effect, saying that they want to live in a city that will never take the next step and compete with the big boys. Just look 200 miles to our south if you want to see a progressive and forward-thinking city. OKC CAN be that as well, if people would quit being so negative and think outside the box when it comes to improving their quality of life. It's basically a domino-effect when a city achieves a higher status nationally. A perfect example of this is Charlotte.

[betts]

I met Tyson before he played his first game for the Hornets. We were out to dinner and I thought the person sitting opposite us was so tall he had to be a basketball player. I knew he wasn't a Hornet, but before dinner was over, I decided he had to be Tyson Chandler. So, I thought, why not welcome him to OKC. As he was leaving I just smiled at him and said , "Welcome to Oklahoma City. We're happy you're here", or something simple like that. He not only smiled back, he stopped at our table and talked to all of us for a few minutes. He was gracious and charming. My daughter was lucky enough to go to college with Chris Paul, and I remember the first thing she said about him was "Not only is he the nicest guy in the world, he one of the smartest. He has a 4.0, and I only know two other people at Wake with grades like that."

[HOT ROD]

EXACTLY John ^.

We need to compete with the big boys and we aren't YET at the point where we dont need public investment to do so. We will get there, but we need to have the progressive and forward thinking that allows us to SHUT naysaying people who exploit OKC with our PROGRESSIVE action.

Charlotte is a great example, Salt Lake is another, add in Sacramento!

[Karried]

..maybe we did get lucky with Chris Paul, PJ Brown, David West etc etc..

Nah. It's not luck. It's not hard at all to find a black man with good morals. I pride myself in being one along with my father and my five brothers.

NO, NO, NO.. that's not what I meant at all!!!! I feel so fortunate and blessed to have Chris Paul and the rest of the team here as an intro to NBA in OKC. That's all we know about the NBA and we love them.

We all fell in love with them and they are the nicest people you ever want to meet... I met them a few different times and they were awesome.

So, when I think of NBA, thugs never enter my mind. Only great players, great times and wonderful experiences.