OKC Vs. Tulsa

[Plutonic Panda]

This is inane. What exactly do you think Oklahoma City does with it's treated water? Or any city?

So correct me if I'm wrong here, but the treated water is turned into drinking water. Dallas and Atlanta do the same thing. I believe L.A. shoots its water far out into the ocean.

[jerrywall]

One thing that I don't like about Tulsa is that they dump their sewage into the Arkansas River. Even though treated, it still dirties it up to a degree. I have good friends who live in the Tulsa area that make a living from the river, and they complain about it.

To be fair the "Oklahoma" river west of the stockyards gets pretty ripe.

[BG918]

By the way, the type of work that I'm referring to is the type that will hopefully soon be done on Western Avenue, as the City of OKC just accepted a streetscape plan from the OU Institute for Quality Communities. Should give Western a major shot in the arm, and I would expect to see more development quickly follow, as it did streetscapes in places like Automobile Alley and Plaza District. Hopefully one day Western will be 10% as amazing as Brookside.

http://iqc.ou.edu/project/western

This is what Western needs and I'm glad to see that happening. Maybe Brookside can be their next project. It is true that the stretch of Peoria from 33rd to 35th is pretty decent from a retail and restaurant density standpoint and walkable with a relatively recent streetscape improvement. The part south of this corridor though from 35th to roughly 39th has some walkable areas with on-street parallel parking and sidewalk facing retail but also several businesses with parking out front, car shops, etc. if Trader Joe's is indeed going in between 37th and 38th then this is an opportunity to make that stretch more like its northern counterpart. The OU ICQ could be a help in that regard.

[Bellaboo]

This is inane. What exactly do you think Oklahoma City does with it's treated water? Or any city?

I myself have hunted the Arkansas River for ancient artifacts. If you walk out into the middle of the Arkansas River just South of the Creek turnpike bridge by Jenks, you will find a car out there, engine blocks, etc. The refinery does not do it any favors either. The Arkansas is known for heavy metals also, but my friends from Tulsa that does the same thing I do complain greatly about the sewage recycle.
I love the artifacts though.
I'm not sure where OKC dumps it's processed water, the Deer Creek facility may be the primary water source for Deer and Cottonwood creeks, but I'm sure it doesn't go to the Oklahoma River.

[Laramie]

What I've learned recently about OKC is the people here are more down-to-earth; they are not caught up in this dilemma where one city views itself as superior.

I've lived briefly in a number of cities (Tulsa, St. Louis, Dallas, Ft. Worth, Arlington, Houston), people who live in the bigger cities don't engage in that conversation. There has always been a rift between our two largest cities.

Post MAPS era, Oklahoma City appears more mature about who she is. I love Tulsa, she's smaller than OKC; has a lot of things that cities larger than itself doesn't possess.

OKC's development shows signs that the area is braced for significant progress as we approach 2020. Maybe this kind of sibling rivalry is good for both cities in that in makes for competition

Tulsa has resources. Tulsa's metropolitan area possesses great water resources: Keystone, Tenkiller, Oologah, Yahola, Grand Lake, Arkansas & Illinois Rivers along with the most inland canals in the U. S. ((Ports of Muskogee & Catoosa) that leads to America's largest port in New Orleans.

The mystery question to me: Why haven't you experienced a progressive boom?

[Swake]

I myself have hunted the Arkansas River for ancient artifacts. If you walk out into the middle of the Arkansas River just South of the Creek turnpike bridge by Jenks, you will find a car out there, engine blocks, etc. The refinery does not do it any favors either. The Arkansas is known for heavy metals also, but my friends from Tulsa that does the same thing I do complain greatly about the sewage recycle.
I love the artifacts though.
I'm not sure where OKC dumps it's processed water, the Deer Creek facility may be the primary water source for Deer and Cottonwood creeks, but I'm sure it doesn't go to the Oklahoma River.

The water going into the river from the waste water treatment plant is cleaner than the water in the river naturally. The refineries claim the same, but they have been fined for water quality violations in the past. The Arkansas River is safe for human contact but has not always been safe for fishing. From what I have been told the biggest pollutants in the water is yard chemicals from water runoff from the surrounding residential areas that drain into the river. The city, RPA and the Corp try to keep people out of the river because the existing low water dam is just plain dangerous and the water level can change quickly when the Keystone Dam opens and closes for power generation. It’s a pretty regular thing for people to have to be rescued from the river. Junk that gets exposed in the riverbed has always been a problem.

[bchris02]

There has always been a rift between our two largest cities.

I think there would be less of a rivalry between OKC and Tulsa if Tulsa was located about 50 miles farther up the turnpike, near the Missouri border. The cities would be far enough apart that their distinct identities would be more pronounced. There would also be less instances of amenities going to Tulsa that otherwise would go to OKC or vice versa. It would be more like Memphis vs. Nashville or Kansas City vs St. Louis.

[Swake]

I think there would be less of a rivalry between OKC and Tulsa if Tulsa was located about 50 miles farther up the turnpike, near the Missouri border. The cities would be far enough apart that their distinct identities would be more pronounced. There would also be less instances of amenities going to Tulsa that otherwise would go to OKC or vice versa. It would be more like Memphis vs. Nashville or Kansas City vs St. Louis.

The "rift" between Tulsa and OKC is minor compared to the one between Kansas City and St Louis. And then St Louis and Chicago.

And I simply don't get the idea that Oklahoma City and Tulsa being completely distinct markets 100 miles apart share "amenities", the only time I have ever seen an example of that was when the NBA was being sold on Oklahoma City as a viable market. The state of Oklahoma has deemed Tulsa not worthy of rail service, a real four year university, non-toll interstate access and a number of other things, but that has everything to do with the state not giving a crap about Tulsa and nothing to do with Tulsa's proximity to Oklahoma City. Von Maur going to Oklahoma City had nothing to do with Tulsa just like Belk going to Tulsa had nothing to do with Oklahoma City.

Do you want to know why Tulsa has some store OKC doesn't? Or why Tulsa often gets a chain first? Demographically Tulsa's per capita income is 8.4% higher and has about 10% more college graduates with a cost of living that is about 5% less. And Tulsa's wealth is more concentrated so those 3 and 5 mile rings that retailers love look better. It's really that simple and has nothing to do with hating Oklahoma City. You want better retail in Oklahoma City, improve the demographics, which is something that seems to be happening.

[dankrutka]

Oh, I forgot the Pearl District... knew I forgot one. Oh, and it sucks ass.

When people criticize Dallas you throw a fit, yet you repeatedly post how "Tulsa sucks ass." It comes off as immature. Quit insulting places and just stick to critiquing what you like/don't like. No one is opposed to critiques, but insults prevent any kind of reasonable dialogue.

I personally love Tulsa. The Brady District is a vibrant, sophisticated district with great, new urban options and districts like Brookside and Cherry Street have been charming areas for a long time. If you don't like these areas then just critique them, but please quit insulting the entire city.

[Rover]

Do you want to know why Tulsa has some store OKC doesn't? Or why Tulsa often gets a chain first? Demographically Tulsa's per capita income is 8.4% higher and has about 10% more college graduates with a cost of living that is about 5% less. And Tulsa's wealth is more concentrated so those 3 and 5 mile rings that retailers love look better. It's really that simple and has nothing to do with hating Oklahoma City. You want better retail in Oklahoma City, improve the demographics, which is something that seems to be happening.

The economics are changing quickly. If you compare metro areas, as of the latest end of year statistics, the average pay in the metro areas, OKC average wage is about 5% higher. If you take the entire metro, and not Tulsa proper and OKC proper, the per family median income in OKC is much higher. But, you are correct that OKC is more diversified in its socio-economics across the metro. Tulsa's wealthy tend to segregate themselves from everyone else. But overall, OKC is outpacing the state by a bigger margin than Tulsa and Tulsa is falling back. OKC earning average is higher and unemployment rates are better. There is way more spendable money in OKC and the gap is growing. But, in OKC it isn't easy for outsiders to figure out where to locate to take advantage of it.

[Plutonic Panda]

When people criticize Dallas you throw a fit, yet you repeatedly post how "Tulsa sucks ass." It comes off as immature. Quit insulting places and just stick to critiquing what you like/don't like. No one is opposed to critiques, but insults prevent any kind of reasonable dialogue.

I personally love Tulsa. The Brady District is a vibrant, sophisticated district with great, new urban options and districts like Brookside and Cherry Street have been charming areas for a long time. If you don't like these areas then just critique them, but please quit insulting the entire city.

I'll disagree with your analysis on the Brady district and leave with the notion that this has already been addressed. By all means, if you feel compelled, continue to add more opinions of what you think about my comments.

[Laramie]

I think there would be less of a rivalry between OKC and Tulsa if Tulsa was located about 50 miles farther up the turnpike, near the Missouri border. The cities would be far enough apart that their distinct identities would be more pronounced. There would also be less instances of amenities going to Tulsa that otherwise would go to OKC or vice versa. It would be more like Memphis vs. Nashville or Kansas City vs St. Louis.

Good comparison!

Probably would be a different scenario if they were farther apart or closer together like Fort Worth vs. Dallas or Minneapolis vs. St. Paul.

[Plutonic Panda]

Good comparison!

Probably would be a different scenario if they were farther apart or closer together like Fort Worth vs. Dallas or Minneapolis vs. St. Paul.

I used to frequently hear about Dallas Vs. Houston, but that seems to have calmed down in the recent years. It is clear however, Houston is the dominant city.

Out of those comparisons, I would guess St. Louis and Nashville would be the leading cities.

[Swake]

The economics are changing quickly. If you compare metro areas, as of the latest end of year statistics, the average pay in the metro areas, OKC average wage is about 5% higher. If you take the entire metro, and not Tulsa proper and OKC proper, the per family median income in OKC is much higher. But, you are correct that OKC is more diversified in its socio-economics across the metro. Tulsa's wealthy tend to segregate themselves from everyone else. But overall, OKC is outpacing the state by a bigger margin than Tulsa and Tulsa is falling back. OKC earning average is higher and unemployment rates are better. There is way more spendable money in OKC and the gap is growing. But, in OKC it isn't easy for outsiders to figure out where to locate to take advantage of it.

This just incorrect.
2013 BEA numbers:
Tulsa MSA per capita income - $47,279 Rank - 50th - Growth Rate - (2012) 8.2%, (2013) 1.2%
OKC MSA per capita income - $44,280 Rank 90th - Growth Rate - (2012) 5.2%, (2013) 1.0%

BEA: News Release: Local Area Personal Income, 2013

[Rover]

You are using a select set of figures. I am using ones from the Bureau of Labor Statistics showing the avg. rate of pay in Tulsa area as $20.04 per hr and OKC area $20.47. And, OKC's growth rate of income continues to escalate relative to the state, while Tulsa's does not. This is a bitter pill for the Tulsan's to take, but there is a reason that employment is growing far faster in OKC, as are most other economic measures. Tulsan's will keep believing their own propoganda though. This has been their nature for the last decade.

[adaniel]

You are using a select set of figures. I am using ones from the Bureau of Labor Statistics showing the avg. rate of pay in Tulsa area as $20.04 per hr and OKC area $20.47. And, OKC's growth rate of income continues to escalate relative to the state, while Tulsa's does not. This is a bitter pill for the Tulsan's to take, but there is a reason that employment is growing far faster in OKC, as are most other economic measures. Tulsan's will keep believing their own propoganda though. This has been their nature for the last decade.

Per capita income =/= disposable income. Wages are actually a measure of whats going in people's pockets.

And then there's this:



As as the retail thing is concerned, Tulsa will always have a bit of an advantage because wealth there is more "concentrated."But let's not ignore the city's rather brutal history of redlining and segregation. For the record, I like Tulsa, but you can make any city's demographics look good when you push your poor and/or disadvantaged citizens to the peripheral outskirts.

[Swake]

You are using a select set of figures. I am using ones from the Bureau of Labor Statistics showing the avg. rate of pay in Tulsa area as $20.04 per hr and OKC area $20.47. And, OKC's growth rate of income continues to escalate relative to the state, while Tulsa's does not. This is a bitter pill for the Tulsan's to take, but there is a reason that employment is growing far faster in OKC, as are most other economic measures. Tulsan's will keep believing their own propoganda though. This has been their nature for the last decade.

Those numbers on count income from work and therefore and not a complete picture.

[Rover]

Just drive around both cities and see which one you think is growing most and is on a roll. It isn't hard to figure.

Look, I love Tulsa...used to live there. However, they have NOT maximized their asset. And, they are losing ground. But, they have unbelievable assets to work with and if they can ever get their city government more functional and the people out of denial, then what is possible is great.

[Plutonic Panda]

I really went and explored Tulsa for the first time in awhile as opposed to sticking to the interstate and going right off of it. All I am going to say is I was completely wrong in my analysis that Tulsa is inferior. OKC is making huge strides and is the bigger and more dominant city, but as for what city has nicer amenities and such, I'm just going to say I used to think Edmond was the dominant suburb over Norman, and boy was I wrong. I am sorry for anyone I insulted and I'm going to leave it at the fact that what I saw in Tulsa didn't make me feel good about OKC. OKC has a long ways to go and Tulsa is really picking up new energy I never realized existed there.

BTW, I will add that as for new construction OKC has it beat. I didn't see too much new construction going on in the Tulsa area, but as for what city feels bigger and more cosmopolitan, I am going to come out and say Tulsa has that and leave it at that for now.

[ZYX2]

Panda, I appreciate that you've taken the time to get around and see Tulsa. Glad you enjoyed it as well. However, I think you're being a little harsh on OKC. It's a great city that's full of energy and new activity.

Tulsa should have much more new construction starting within the next 12 months. OKC is ahead of Tulsa in sheer amount, and likely will be, at least for the foreseeable future. However, I think the neighborhoods of Tulsa, urban and suburban, most definitely are as nice as anything offered in OKC, and will continue to be.

[bchris02]

All of this talk about Tulsa and Costco caused me to go up to Tulsa recently to see for myself. Having spent a lot of time in major cities in different regions of the country I think I have pretty good perspective when it comes to judging urban feel. I was much more impressed by Tulsa than I expected to be.

This is a debate that will be interesting to see five years from now when all of the announced projects discussed on OKCTalk are built and open for business. As of right now, the major thing OKC has to hang its hat on is having Thunder basketball. However, I firmly believe there is more to being a vibrant city than a sports team and while sports is certainly a part of it, OKC should not be content to hang its hat on that alone. Fact is once pro sports is taken out of the equation, it's hard to find any criteria by which OKC is ahead of Tulsa. To argue in OKC's favor, you MUST take the discussion back to the Thunder and the announced projects, all of which aren't built yet and aren't guaranteed. As exciting as the prospect of the ClayCo towers, the streetcar, the convention center, Hall Capital, the Criterion theater, etc are, they are not yet adding to the urban fabric and energy of OKC. Five years from now once all of those are in place I am sure this will be a very different debate.

As of 2015 though, I can completely understand why so many people still perceive Tulsa to be the larger, more cosmopolitan of the cities. It all comes down to the neighborhoods, both urban and suburban, simply being more complete and mature with more attention paid towards beautification and placemaking. I really wish OKC would consider an aggressive campaign to clean up and beautify many areas of the city. The small details can make all the difference when it comes to perception.

[BG918]

As exciting as the prospect of the ClayCo towers, the streetcar, the convention center, Hall Capital, the Criterion theater, etc are, they are not yet adding to the urban fabric and energy of OKC. Five years from now once all of those are in place I am sure this will be a very different debate.

Tulsa doesn't have the economic momentum or a fraction of the major projects that OKC has in the pipeline besides the Gathering Place park. We will see what depressed oil prices do to both cities over the next couple years. Tulsa will likely vote on a river tax proposal that could be a game changer this November. Recent proposals to build dams and enhance the parks along the river, the city's top natural asset, have failed so we'll see what Tulsa voters do this time around.

[bchris02]

Tulsa doesn't have the economic momentum or a fraction of the major projects that OKC has in the pipeline besides the Gathering Place park. We will see what depressed oil prices do to both cities over the next couple years.

OKC's momentum is why I think this will be a different debate in 5 years. Once all of the currently proposed developments talked about on OKCTalk are up and running, I think OKC will have a very different feel. OKC really needs the momentum to keep going. Hopefully depressed oil prices don't affect current proposals. Even if future proposals slow down, the stuff currently in the pipeline is enough to significantly change OKC.

[Spartan]

All of this talk about Tulsa and Costco caused me to go up to Tulsa recently to see for myself. Having spent a lot of time in major cities in different regions of the country I think I have pretty good perspective when it comes to judging urban feel. I was much more impressed by Tulsa than I expected to be.

This is a debate that will be interesting to see five years from now when all of the announced projects discussed on OKCTalk are built and open for business. As of right now, the major thing OKC has to hang its hat on is having Thunder basketball. However, I firmly believe there is more to being a vibrant city than a sports team and while sports is certainly a part of it, OKC should not be content to hang its hat on that alone. Fact is once pro sports is taken out of the equation, it's hard to find any criteria by which OKC is ahead of Tulsa. To argue in OKC's favor, you MUST take the discussion back to the Thunder and the announced projects, all of which aren't built yet and aren't guaranteed. As exciting as the prospect of the ClayCo towers, the streetcar, the convention center, Hall Capital, the Criterion theater, etc are, they are not yet adding to the urban fabric and energy of OKC. Five years from now once all of those are in place I am sure this will be a very different debate.

As of 2015 though, I can completely understand why so many people still perceive Tulsa to be the larger, more cosmopolitan of the cities. It all comes down to the neighborhoods, both urban and suburban, simply being more complete and mature with more attention paid towards beautification and placemaking. I really wish OKC would consider an aggressive campaign to clean up and beautify many areas of the city. The small details can make all the difference when it comes to perception.

The problem with taking away OKC's "announced projects" is that while everyone has been talking about the construction in OKC, a lot of those projects have been finished. Downtown OKC has substantially more downtown housing, and a much stronger market for it - that's why regardless of the oil boom, downtown housing will remain strong as long as people live in OKC and need housing.

I'd be curious to hear how you reevaluate OKC once you too live downtown. Tulsa has its majority of folks who live their entire lives south of I-44. NW OKC is becoming a lot more like Midtown Tulsa than people realize because that development/infill boom has been overshadowed by downtown.

[betts]

I've spent plenty of time in both and think it depends on what you like. Tulsa has an eastern climate and geography and if aesthetics are your primary criteria, Tulsa will always win. If you want a city that is starting to feel like it's breaking out of the small time (even without the Thunder), then OKC wins hands down. Having moved here from Denver, OKC feels far more like a little Denver (finally!) than Tulsa ever will. Except for the mountains in the distance, Denver is not that aesthetically pleasing either, but it's a fun, lively place to be.